Tortured

Well I agree that people who embrace evil such as torture deserve what they would give to others, you know the golden rule from their side. However I really would not want anyone to have to endure that. Certainly many prisoners have died while being tortured and their tormentors have escaped society's penalties but they have not escaped their own consciences. Isn't it something like 120+ or - former military individuals are committing suicide on a monthly basis. Why do you think that is? I think it's because their own culpability has finally caught up with them. Isn't it interesting that the one person who is actually responsible for most of the death and destruction around the world sleeps so well at night?

by Archie (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 846 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 7:58:10 PM
 

SS

I learned something in my teaching years at the venerable college the world is filled with incredibly stupid people, It is too bad that a woman's body does not have a natural sensor which automatically aborts any fetus with an IQ below 140 and has a bent toward avarice. We would have a smaller population, there would be hardly any Republicans and there would be more toys because there aren't many kids to buy them and they would be of higher quality because the dumb kids and dumb parents buy kids dumb, cheap, crappy, Chinese Death toxic, fuming, plastic toys and if they were all out of our hair, my collection of metal toys would thus be much larger.

I don't listen to stuff that will piss me off it is garbage anyway. No One likes doing things that gives them ulcers anyway? Turn on some music before you lose it and run over your mail man or Dr. Cavity.

by Professor Emeritus Peter Bagnolo (144 articles, 1 quicklinks, 95 diaries, 1220 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 8:05:44 PM
 

Sandy

Last night I watched a TV special called Cheney's Law. In it they inteviewed a Whitehouse lawyer Yew in a little known section refered to as 'a mini Supreme court'who justfied torture by saying that it was in the interests of the 'nation' he claimed that when they captured the third highest alQaeda opperative they had to use these techniques to discover if he knew of any more planned attacks on our country.....were we supposed to let them be mirandered and allow them to be silent while our citizens might die? His interview was in the context that he and Cheney's lawyer have an agenda to restore? the war time president's right as commander in chief to do what ever he/she deems best without interferance from Congress.

This showed also showed that how the torture and tribunals were the idea of Cheney and his lawyer went from a 4 page document to a presidential decree in 3hours by by passing most of the consultative systems Like Ms. Rice and Powell.

Three  points here there is a serious flaw in a system that allows a plot cooked up by Cheney and 'his' lawyer can bypass all systems set up for scruitany.

Secondly any system that permits a president to declare war particularly 'war' (the definition here is highly suspect) on terrorism then use that to claim absolute powers derived from the constitution then the constitution needs major adjustment.

Finally the morality issue does the US have the right to claim immunity/exclussion  to laws that it insist on compliance from everyone else?

From the perspective of outsiders America is no longer the shining example of very much positive thanks to Cheney's philosophy, his Lawyer and a limited President. The question asked is how come they got elected (twice)? will the mess ever be fixed ? then followed by shaking of heads and "only in America" 

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 532 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 9:35:00 PM
 

Um...logical problem here...

...you want to torture people because you think they deserve it...because...they want to torture people because they think they deserve it.

by Robert Sargent (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 24 diaries, 299 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 12:48:03 AM
 

Wrong!

Your conclusion is upside down, inside out and backwards.

Since the people who think torture is a game and water boarding in particular, doesn't kill, hurt or maim will never be tortured, it's a metaphorical lesson.

They need to know that torture, even water boarding does kill, hurt and maim.

I also said their torture wouldn't last more than thirty seconds, because it wouldn't take much longer than that, if that long, for these brave souls that want us to use torture on prisoners, to learn the lesson.

Still want to send me that flattering anniversary email?

by Sandy Sand (130 articles, 0 quicklinks, 153 diaries, 1174 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 6:29:14 AM
 

No, he was not wrong, Sandy

It was the logic of one stream of thought within your editorial piece, distilled down to its essence. Furthermore, 30 seconds of torture is still torture, but it's a sort of torture that is designed to allow the torturer the luxury of having their cake and eat it to. That is, you want to torture them and still walk away with a clean conscience.

Now, having said that, having evoked your ire, having triggered your defensiveness, the comment in question was not one I would have made because I am sympathetic to your frustration and I understood the literary license you were taking to vent your frustration. Furthermore, going by the last sentence in your reply, there is apparently a context here that I'm unaware of; a subtext of some sort in the communication.

Furthermore, I do believe that simply torturing Bill O'Reilly for 30 seconds would actually reinforce him in his beliefs that it's not really torture. Perhaps you remember his comments about that student in Florida who was tasered at the Kerry lecture. But I'll address all this separately.

by Terry (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 28 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 8:52:34 AM
 

I'll do better than that...

I'll flatter you publicly, accept defeat, and defer to your superior logic & wit. 

by Robert Sargent (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 24 diaries, 299 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 9:19:13 AM
 

It is the folks...

...that have bought into the bullshit of the necessity of torture (up to and including DUBYA) that want to see us continue to use it. How convenient it is that we are fighting a war that has apparently proved that centuries of wisdom on the effectiveness of torture is wrong! And how convenient is it that the propaganda machine and its mouthpieces were so effective in dumbing down a bunch of people just when the government needed those people made extra-stupid? When a reasonable and prudent human would realize that torture says more about the torturer than the tortured, it takes people willingly stupefied by the likes of O'rally, Lintball, and Insannity to look at the topic the other way around.

Do I personally think that someone who would advocate torture should feel it themselves? No, I think that such an obviously inhumane, insane, criminal should be put to death. Perhaps if we get the love of torture purged from the human gene pool, maybe STUPIDITY will be the next one to bite the dust.

Of course, what do you expect from a bunch of idiots who walk around with the symbol of the torture device used to kill their savior hung about their necks? How fucked up is that? If Jesus had been shot by a firing squad, christians would be walking around wearing small, gold rifles on chains around their necks.

There are far too many people who worship at the altar of stupid for it to fall out of fashion before my death. And, even if I did have kids, they'd have to deal with stupid after me, and their kids after that, and so on. Stupid is here to stay.

it is sometimes unfortunate that there is a similar moral dilemma surrounding the topic of eugenics. Frankly, I think that humanity would be well served by the removal of stupid from the human genome.

Unfortunately, that would mean killing lots of people who were already afflicted, or perhaps rendering them sterile. While motorcycle and sports car manufacturers are doing their best to help society along by taking out the younger stupid generation before they can pass on stupid, there has to be a more concerted effort to get rid of stupid...once and for all!

Blessed be!
Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 863 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 1:39:15 AM
 

The crucifix

I don't want to go down the road of false dichotomies and sides. And it's especially difficult to find myself feeling impelled to defend elements of positions that I don't hold. I've seen what happens to people like Noam Chomsky when he defends the right of free speech even as it applies to a Holocaust denier. I certainly don't want to enter into the arena of arguing about an alleged Christ who was allegedly executed upon a cross. (I do find it extraordinarily ironic that the Catholic bishops seem to be almost the only group with the good sense not to jump on the global warming movement bandwagon.)

Nonetheless, I must say that the wearing of the crucifix has nothing to do with the celebration of the execution of Christ nor the celebration of the instrument of his death. The cross/crucifix functions on many, many levels, none of which have to do with death or instruments of murder. The cross predates Christ by many thousands of years. And even merely within the confines of christianity, it's not about death, but about suffering. Without elaborating, fully knowing the deep misunderstandings embedded within our culture about that word, I will only say that embracing suffering on the individual level is ultimately a vital aspect of any changes that actually could possibly lead us, as a world, away from the huge levels of unnecessary suffering that plague us all.

Indeed, that also means that those of us who think ourselves intelligent must learn to suffer the stupid around us and we must learn to do so gladly.

The problems in this world are not primarily caused by the stupid. They are caused by the elite who think themselves smart. This is not an accusation, Pappy, because surely I am every bit as inclined toward this arrogance as you or anyone else. Our problems are less caused by the stupidity of the stupid than by the stupidity of the intelligent. Stupidity is not confined to the domain of the stupid; to the domain of a particular IQ level. The intelligent, or those who are such by their own definitions, are unfortunately awfully stupid as well. And yet, they measure themselves comparatively and develop arrogance and hubris and all such nice characteristics that contribute so much to our world.

It's sort of funny actually. That a subset of the population who know nothing and who understand nothing have such high levels of disrespect and derision for the majority of the population who know nothing and who understand nothing.

And we're actually stupid enough to be dismayed, never mind surprised, that history keeps repeating itself?

Incidentally, knowing a little something about typography and the forms of written communication... well, I don't want to be insulting and call something stupid... but printing white on a black background is not exactly very smart. And I mean only in terms of one's own purposes.

by Terry (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 28 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 8:41:17 AM
 

They do not think, period

There is a lot of people in this country who are permanently scared. They are scared of  cars, weather, people  of other color, their own family, dogs, bacteria, salmonella, Gore,  environmentalists. foreclosure, Mexicans, Europeans, etc - anyone who somehow disrupts their pristine  mentality. And that fear makes them mad, makes them  paralysed, makes them dangerous and makes them .. call Bill.

Naa.. Sandy, we  should not torture those people ( someone than has to do that and it is not worth it).  I can assure you, Sandy that  if the things go on as they do now those people will be tortured by exactly those whom they  trust and Uncle Sam will not help them. But we here, those who know the truth - we actually fight for  no possiblity even to be tortured for ANYONE, including the scum of the Universe  like Bill O'Reilly. Yes, we actually fight for him, damn him. Funny,huh? They  do not think..

As for that  'old lady', the Boo is just around the corner. Tell her that when she iss tortured, Bill will say 'Old ladies do not really feel anything, so what's the big deal.'

by Mark Sashine (44 articles, 19 quicklinks, 228 diaries, 3268 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 7:49:05 AM
 

The problem with 30 seconds of torture

... is that it's not hard to take, especially if one knows one is safe, one knows there is an end, one knows that one is not truly helpless and hopeless.

This reminds me of one of Reagan's cabinet who put himself and his family on the exact same food budget provided by food stamps at the time for 30 days and then proudly declared that he couldn't see what the problem was. The naivety of that, the obliviousness of that, the seemingly deliberate obtuseness of that; and mostly the glib dismissiveness of that was absolutely mind boggling to me even at the time, when I was young and even more stupid than I am now. It illustrated a complete misunderstanding of the problems of poverty, the very least of which is mathematics. It didn't take into account all the other myriad problems of poverty and how that might impact food stamps. It didn't take into account despair and the stupid insanities that despair causes. It didn't take into account the needs to borrow from Peter to pay Paul, nor the needs to make foolish choices for a brief moment of relief. It did not take into account the impact of hopelessness. It was a callous, uncompassionate, inhumane dismissal of human beings who obviously had not registered one iota upon the mind of that rich and privileged person, who had been charged with the responsibility of looking after the needs of his society. More importantly, it was very much a part of the groundwork of what we all face now.

I personally believe we are in deep trouble, for instance, with the accelerated usage of tasers by our police agencies. They are too easy to use without a recognition of the damage and suffering being caused. They are only preferable to firearms as replacements in those situations that once would have prompted a cop to pull a gun, but as one commentator quite correctly pointed out, the improvement gained by pulling a taser over a gun is more than offset by the massively widened subset of situations in which they are used.

But let's not think that cops are not subjected to being 'tased', if that's the correct word. They are. But they are not, to my knowledge, subjected to extended duration tasing. They are not subjected to unexpected tasing in normal conversation when their responses are unacceptable - unacceptability being a decision only of the other party. They are not subjected to life threatening tasing. Obviously they would not accept any such training program.

Bill O'Reilly has been tased. He volunteered for it. And it wasn't so bad. Thus he had nothing but derision for the student at that Florida university where John Kerry was speaking. Nothing but contempt for the wuss, as he put it, for the exaggerated acting of the student in his screaming from agony.

This is pretty much the same result in the cases of those few journalists who have volunteered to be waterboarded. And you can pretty much be guaranteed that the same result would occur if Bill O'Reilly or Sean Hannity were waterboarded for 30 seconds. Remember, that the people who engage in these tortures are indeed subjected to these methods as part of their training.

The only way a Bill O'Reilly or anyone else could get some sense of appreciation for what it's really like would be if some group kidnapped them from their beds in the middle of the night, hooded them, dragged them off to some hopeless location, and absolutely had them convinced that they were in the hands of terrorists or nutcases or something and that their situation was hopeless and would be unending. Then, maybe, a few days of waterboarding sessions several times a day, being verbally and physically heavily abused, shackled for 12 hours at a time in extremely uncomfortable positions in extremely uncomfortable cold... then, maybe, they would begin to have some small grasp of the situation.

But of course, that would be terribly, terribly humane. Something in fact, we would not wish upon our worst enemies, even if people like O'Reilly or Hannity or any number of others do wish exactly that upon our enemies.

We all know that democracy cannot be forced upon people at the end of the barrel of someone else's gun. Unfortunately, the same holds true for compassion and insight.

Incidentally, purely as an aside, I'd like to take you up on only one thing you said:
Can they not see that the evil of our torturing the enemy is a worse evil than when the enemy tortures our soldiers?

Well, 'evil' is a tricky word and one I'd rather stay clear of. But the answer to your question is that it is not a worse evil. Period.

However, leaving out the word 'evil', I will say that I know where you're coming from. Obviously from our perspective, it is worse. But we presume ourselves to be the good guys. And isn't that part of the problem? We are NOT the good guys. And no, it is not worse. We are the guys who have been teaching our Latin American neighbors to use death squads, to employ torture and to employ it not only for information, but also for terror. And we have supplied them with the instruments of torture and trained them in the application of torture. We've been doing this for more than 30 years.

But, like you, I still insist on thinking that we are somehow superior because of our goodness, or so we like to think. (Actually, I think we rely on a handful of men who have been dead for 200 years who actually were illuminated with something special and who, we feel, have imbued us all somehow with some of that light.)

And even if we do have some degree of that goodness that our enemies lack, the problem with the good is that they simultaneously know they are good and that in itself is a corrupting factor. Being good is great, I think we'll all agree. But knowing one is good inevitably leads most of us to thinking we are good and that is definitely not good, lol. But it's tricky, because thinking ourselves bad can lead to despair and then to actual badness. Hmmmm... maybe the problem is a combination of the human ego and the desire within us to find polarities in all matters which have inherent moral value so that we can always choose the good.

Anyway, going back to 'evil' for a moment, evil is not the opposite of good, but evil is absolute. It's also subtle at times, but no less effective. And, as I said, the answer to your question is 'no', you doing X is not more evil than someone else doing X. We are not superior.

by Terry (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 28 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 9:33:44 AM
 

this is for the first time

I read what I preached all along- Americans are no better than anyone else.

I do  agree. And  toture in unacceptable in any form even to prove a point. O'Reilly is an idiot, we all know that and idiots like him will promote anything.  Being a Russian by origin I can assure Mr. Bill O that it will take an amateur like  me about 5 min to convince him to sing like a canary that he is Osama Bin Ladin.  But  it is useless to prove that  to the people like him.Maybe they should taser him more, although it then would be torture for sure. In fact,  those people who ask for a proof that torture is unacceptable are sick and  hopeless. Please, read my comment to George McGovern's article about Americans being  'better than that'.

Tha backbone of an honest man is that he/she  recognizes evil and acts accordingly. Torturing people  and animals too is absolute evil, worse even than murder.  As good is absolute, evil can be absolute too. We better look in the mirrors. The real ones.

by Mark Sashine (44 articles, 19 quicklinks, 228 diaries, 3268 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 1:22:48 PM
 

Sigh...yawn...here we go again!

First of all, it is highly apparent to me that you didn't read my statement. I said NOTHING about the crucifix! NOT A WORD! I said, since it obviously bears repeating: Of course, what do you expect from a bunch of idiots who walk around with the symbol of the torture device used to kill their savior hung about their necks? How fucked up is that? If Jesus had been shot by a firing squad, christians would be walking around wearing small, gold rifles on chains around their necks.

The crucifix is catholic symbol. It is a cross AND the CORPSE of the Rabbi Christ. That idea in itself adds to the gross-ology of the catholic faith...a faith I eschewed almost thirty years ago...and one I don't miss, even unto this day!

No, I was speaking of the cross; THE Roman tool of torture and death. For you to say that the cross has nothing to do with torture and death only proves to me that you carry the stupid gene, and you aren't afraid to allow it to express itself, even here, in a public forum...where doing so makes you look like a total FOOL!

The cross may have had numerous arcane and esoteric meanings at a time predating the whelping of christianity. However, since the time that the original christian MORONS adopted the cross as the symbol of their "savior", the cross has become THE symbol for the torture and death of the Rabbi Christ.

It is nothing else! Just like eating his "body" and drinking his "blood" is implied sacred cannibalism, the cross is a symbol of torture and death! For you to say otherwise proves you wouldn't know symbology if it hopped up and shit in your mouth!

For you to say I am wrong proves you need to do more researching on the topic on which you are attempting to speak. It also proves to me that you would be in serious trouble if stupid were to be taken from the gene pool by force!

As far as "suffering the stupid around [me]," why should I have to? Why should anyone be forced to endure stupid? It is stupid that put DUBYA into office, not once, but twice. It is stupid that keeps his sorry ass in power. It is stupid that has placed this country below CUBA in terms of quality of medical care. It is stupid that has placed us lower in regards to other countries with our dreadfully inefficient educational system. It is stupid and the "suffering" of it that has brought us to a point where a moron rules, and the other morons are too stupid or too scared to throw the asshole MORON DUBYA out on his ears.

Elite? Who or what is/are the elite? Is it the rich? Since the rich throw that word around, I guess it isn't. Is it the smart? Well, that depends on whom you ask. Is it me? That's what you seem to be trying to say. Of course, in your cowardly fashion, you are incapable of actually calling me elite. No, you have to pussyfoot around it so that your inner dislike of anyone who goes against your narrow world is hidden.

That bullshit doesn't work here! It doesn't work with me. I cut my online debate teeth dealing with brain-dead idiots like yourself. Either come ready to rumble, or stay at home pissing your nickers! Call me an elitist! Don't bore me with your flaccid attempts to imply that I am an elitist. Say it outright or shut the fuck up!

Wouldn't it make you feel much better to just say, "Pappy, you are an elitist?" Come on, you can do it! If I can call you stupid and moronic, surely you can find it within your falsely courageous self to call me a name or two. You know you want to! Come on! 'Fess up!

Of course, if you ARE trying to imply that I am elitist, you obviously don't know the meaning of the fucking word. And, while you can throw "elite" around trying to prove me a member of the elite, you will fail. I am far too poor, far too lacking in college papers to be even close to elite. I wasn't born with a silver spoon up my ass, like the fuckhead DUBYA!

The problems of this world are caused by sky-cult religions and the tensions that exist between them. Stupid just helps things along, like axle grease helps a wheel bearing not to freeze while you are going seventy miles an hour.

You can say whatever you wish about my methods, my color schemes, or whatever. You can't fault my logic, even though you tried, so you have to insult my style.

That is so fucking lame! Of course, I would expect nothing less from a person moronic enough to think that global climate change is non-existent.

So, if you want to pretend that wearing a cross isn't wearing a symbol of torture and death, you just go right on thinking that! I'll not stop you. I'll not even try.

However, in the future, before you start throwing around words like "elite", you might want to take the time to figure out whether the target of that word is truly a member of the elite. To throw around words like that hoping they will stick is too fucking stupid for words!

Blessed be!
Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 863 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 5:04:49 PM