Waterboarding is illegal

and it is a war crime..all those who knew and did nothing, should be prosecuted in "criminal conspiracy to commit war crimes"...including those Democratic cowards who knew and colluded

by Susan Nelsen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 226 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 11:35:25 AM
 

Yes & No. You're not focusing on what underlies all this.

It's not just a matter of Pelosi being complicit with the torture (which she is, of course), & therefore wishing to avoid exposure in this one area of criminal wrongdoing.

Rather, the main point here is that the reason she went along with the torture, is exactly the same as the reason she goes along with everything else Bush wants to do. And in fact, this reason is the same as why virtually all Democrats go along with Bush, and refuse to impeach him. (The source of the "impeachment-is-off-the-table" policy is hardly just Pelosi.)

The basic thing underlying all this is that the Democrats' class interests largely coincide with Republicans' class interests. Both favor general stances of a militarized society, and policies of corporatism, nationalism & imperialism. Both act as though "what's good for the US ruling class is good for the world," with little or no regard to how this affects the rest of the US population, or the rest of the world.

This basic principle is certainly present in the specific case of Pelosi being complicit in the torture, & in her protection of Bush & Cheney -- but the principle itself is far more widely applicable, & far more general, than its presence in just those specific cases.

by Richard Mynick (2 articles, 3 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 1024 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 12:28:35 PM
 

Two more needs

Progressives who are really just Democrats should get their heads examined and their souls purged. 

 We also need to aggressively support a new 9/11 investigation; the Bush regime played a role, and the Democrats have colluded in the coverup and the continuation of all the lies. 

by Joel S. Hirschhorn (114 articles, 20 quicklinks, 46 diaries, 430 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 1:26:14 PM
 

Why?

It is time for Ms. Pelosi to be removed from her position as speaker. How in the world can a party to the cover up of criminal activity continue to hold the highest position in the House of Representatives, the erstwhile creator of laws for the country. It boggles the mind!

by Archie (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 832 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 2:06:23 PM
 

The Table

When pelosi banged the gong (oops.. I mean..) .. banged the gavel to 'bring order' to the gang gathered for king george's state of the union.. that's when I knew that was the last time she would appear to look in control. Appear being the operative word.

Once george tired of all the hoopla over the first woman speaker, and signaled her to get on with it and bang the table so he could start his blather - and she nodded her head and complied - that was the first signal to us that our serfhood was just announced.

I say we start by ordering a glass table to be delivered to pelosi so that we can more easily see just what is UNDER the table.

by M. Yeager (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 4:23:55 PM
 

judgement call

Mr Yew ex white house solicitor put it something like this. "what woulld you have us do allow the al Qaeda no 3 remain silent without finding out if he knew of other plots to kill Americans while he is Mirandized and has access to our courts?" It is a political reality that this defense will play better than some esoteric argument of human rights to the majority of Americans. Morality and the masses is as unlikely as integrity in Corporations.

Corporations as such aren't insensitive selfish in a vacuum "its the people"

In that light or perspective attacking individuals with florid excessive language or pointless protests is a waste of effort and energy. These actions won't solve the problem they are much like taking  an analgesic for a brain tumour. One can't change basic human nature but one can set up structures that curb its least  desirable  aspects.  Comments?

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 532 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 4:27:02 PM
 

Curbing human nature

One can't change basic human nature but one can set up structures that curb its least desirable aspects.

I agree and think that's a good idea. Oh wait... come to think of it, I thought the founding fathers already did just that.

Let's face it, even Jesus Christ Himself couldn't set up a structure that human beings couldn't override. Oh wait... He did, come to think of it, and that didn't work either.

Maybe we just have to wait until human beings change. Care for a game of Cribbage while we wait?

by Terry (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 28 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 10:01:21 PM
 

I corrected my childen when they were 2 yo why should I

have to do it again non that they are 6? and why should I change the way I  correct them when they're 14? That's in essance what you're saying.

The answer is that the game has changed a new system/structures are needed.

My point is that the Constitution was writ in a context and understandig at the time. It needsconstant maitenenace to accomodate the changes between then and now.

When writ ithey didn't have International Corporations et al. Capitalism was a beneficial Philosophy from Adam Smith. International affairs were base on a handful of self interested nations. United states of America had A fist ful of states and space to expand and oppotunity. I doubt that the founding fathers would recognize USA today? Let alone the webs of corruption sel interest and exploitation of the nation's capital.....people

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 532 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 10:07:13 PM
 

PURPOSE OF TORTURE IS FEAR, NOT INFORMATION

   The answer to Mr. Yew is that most people will confess to anything under torture to stop the pain whether they are guilty or not.  Although the people convicted of witchcraft COULD NOT have been guilty since there are no witches and, with the exception of a few psychotic individuals, could not have even thought they were guilty, the Inquisition was able to get most people to confess to stop their immediately present pain, even though their confessing meant a painful death later.

   And people under torture have the option of confessing to something other than what they are actually guilty of.  That way, they can stop the pain without betraying their cause.  If an investigation proves their confession is false, they can come up with another false confession to stop the renewed torture...

   The primary usefullness of torture for totalitarian regimes is not to get the information they need to remain in power but to strike fear into the people they are holding under their tyranical thrall.

Robert Halfhill   rhalfhill@juno.com

by rhalfhill (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 252 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 4:14:38 AM
 

POSSIBLY

But the issue was it's not what I or we at one end of the thought spectrum think. Mr Yews comments demonstrate the reasoning that would have resonance with the majority of the voters.

Human nature is to self interest not esoteric issues.

There is a (in?)famous test of national guards a few years ago wher the subject was asked to apply various levels of 'torture' (electric shocks) to the 'victim on command. WELL most did even though the dials clearly showed that some of  latter voltages were lethal.  There were many issues exposed here but the ones of interest the subjects willingness to override their' compassion on morality. The power of authority. and the proximity of the 'subject' to the 'victim'.

 All this shows me that when self interest or the victim isn't 'visible' how readily people will ignore the 'victims' fate. This has many spinoffs to current military and administration's behaviour to even selling shampoo and criedibility on blog sites....Have you ever seen a shampoo ad that says its effectiveness is by the the head and scalp institute? And people who use  titles that are irrelevant to the topic?

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 532 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 10:29:17 PM
 

Waterboarding is just like swimming!

Actually Waterboarding is just like swimming, freestyle and backstroke (sic) so what's all the fuss? This according to  Sen. Kit Bond (R-MO) during a recent interview on PBS's Newshour, host Gwen Ifill.

Waterboarding is like swimming? What kind of freakin country are we living in here anyway when we have a US Senator making such a reprehensible remark as this? And just who are these mulish freaks in MO. who continue voting this sick S O B into office?

Is it any wonder why America is so dam loathed!

by Munich (0 articles, 47 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 668 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 5:10:10 PM
 

Swimming?

But of course, waterboarding is like swimming. Isn't that why we prosecuted Japanese soldiers as war criminals after WWII for waterboarding American POW's? I mean, didn't we object to the Japanese making our boys take swimming lessons against their will? What sort of a country club is that, fercrissakes?!

by Terry (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 28 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 10:04:34 PM
 

Perhaps a faulty premise?

Pelosi discouraged impeachment talk prior to ascending to the House leadership, in fact she stated such during the '06 campaign. The article itself notes that the briefing took place shortly after the events of 9/11 and perhaps this was the reason for such agreement with those techniques, I do not know frankly, nor does the author.

I am in favor of major change to our political system, I look with disfavor upon the leadership of both political parties and believe they fail in their sworn duties to the Constitution and the people of this nation. I wish we could focus on the real problems besetting our nation and world, I think that attack pieces like this one, especially as its timeline fails the litmus test in a couple of ways ( as when Pelosi spoke against impeachment and the timing fo the briefing in question in relation to its proximity to those planes hitting buildings) do more harm than good.

Just my opinion.....

by ardee D. (6 articles, 4 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 2388 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 5:17:39 PM
 

Why is noone talking of contempt citations

Your wrong the first thing Nancy Pelosi did was to try to nominate John Murtha Majority Leader. And sudden, even though he comes from Johnstown which is super pro-gun, and he is lackadaisical on the issue, conceivable subject to change, since he change on the war, and abortion, became more important than ending the war.

This ruined the antiwar momentum, abortion and guns were considered by the antiwar elite least as important and ending the war. Remember before Ron Paul crashed the gate, sexist, racists and hetorsexists weren't welcome at antiwar rallies, and almost every antiwar rally had to include at least one speaker calling for raising the minimum wage.

So get to work clearing Congress holding Rove and Bolten in contempt of Congress and rally people to help them enforce the contempt citation. I could continue on for a couple of pages but my comments would just get bleeped again.

by RichardKane (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 29 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 5:26:44 PM
 

the 9/11 excuse

I'm glad Harman objected in writing, but I'd say her Oath of Office to defend the Constitution supercedes any other oath she might take, and if she has knowledge of torture or any other criminal wrongdoing by govt then she's obliged to find a way to stop it or make it public. 

""When you serve on intelligence committee you sign a second oath -- one of secrecy," she said. "I was briefed, but the information was closely held to just the Gang of Four. I was not free to disclose anything."

Of course, they were all under the voodoo magic spell of "9/11"

"Several officials familiar with the briefings also recalled that the meetings were marked by an atmosphere of deep concern about the possibility of an imminent terrorist attack."

Complete 9/11 Timeline

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project 

by Better World Order (4 articles, 277 quicklinks, 13 diaries, 728 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 7:37:20 PM
 

Torture and Pelosi

I did understand that neither Pelosi, Harmon, nor any of the Gang of 4, and Gang of 8, were free to disclose to anyone what had been revealed to them in the Committee.  This is a problem.  If one is not free to disclose or even seek counsel of their attorney...Sounds to me like the bush Administration knew just how to get collaborators. . . interesting kind of blackmail. 

by Crystal Purcell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 44 comments) on Thursday, December 13, 2007 at 8:52:27 PM
 

AMERICAN EDUCATORS STAND UP AND UNITE FOR IMPEACHMENT

I was trained to be a history and social science teacher in Kansas City in the 1980s.

As an educator, I have to ask all teachers and those involved in education  to:

(1) SET UP  a counsel to investigate the loss of the tapes and investigate andy liabilities accrued by congressmen and staffers involved--as well as the operators in the CIA and elsewhere.  WE ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ISSUE BIGGER THAN WATERGATE.

(2) Impeach Dick Cheney and George W. Bush simultaneously.

(3)  Demand that all REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS demand the president's an VPs resignation by christmas.

(4)  Demand all Democrats to replace PELOSI, she has become a liability for all.

AMERICAN CHILDREN are going to grow up screwed up very badly if educators don't make statements in and out of the classroom.

THIS HAS become a domestic social issue--not only a political.

Kevin a. Stoda,

teacher of 24 years 

by ALONE (114 articles, 1 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 251 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 12:15:12 AM
 

the right approach ..

We must have a three-pronged attack at this time:

one, removal of rePUG in DemocRAT clothing, Ms. Pelosi,

two, working to get State Legislatures to UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION and RETURN TO THE RULE OF LAW

while preparing for a grand jury investigation of the lot of them (and they ARE running scared.

three, keep putting togehter a list of abuses and war crimes for the ICC and the Hague.

My blog has an impeachment toolkit which includes how to file a notification to your state legislator using a notary. Afterdowningstreet (duh), Daily KOS, planetization.org, mparent7777-2.blogspot.com, chickasawpicklesmell.blogspot.com (Matt Janovic), crooks and liars and others are all doing what we can to help each how to accomplish these tasks. If you simply type in impeachment toolkit in the searchbox to my blog, you'll get all sorts of tools to sack Pelosi.

We are working on Jonathan Turley and others to come out and do the right thing, rather than waft on blaming Pelosi and the VOTERS for the problems. Yeah, right the election of 2006 was all about Americans specifically voting against TORTURE and WAR CRIMES.

The rest of the world is waiting for America to ACT and restore the rule of law. We are open to attack from other countries UNLESS the rule of law is restored, and it will be deemed legal. People can be deemed collaborators if they do not act to restore the rule of law, in fact.

They nailed Pinochet, now Fujimara so we can take heart.

But the dread Ms. Pelosi must GO, as a war crimes collusionist.

by ladybroadoak (37 articles, 20 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 390 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 1:29:45 AM
 

Why Impeachment is Off the Table

Please, people, GET REAL! There are two very obvious reasons why the Democrats aren't talking about impeaching Bush:

 1) The Republicans made impeachment a partisan weapon with their idiotic impeachment of Bill Clinton in 1999 -- not for abuse of power, but for his affair with Monica Lewinsky. By doing so, the GOP transformed a powerful constitutional check and balance into a piece of partisan junk.

 2) Nobody -- not even Republicans -- want Dick Cheney to serve out the remainder of Bush's term. Cheney is by far the most dangerous man in Washington, especially with his determined campaign to launch a war against Iran.

by Skeeter Sanders (29 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 74 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 1:45:19 AM
 

Impeachment

1-Clinton was smeared and impeached bacause he refused to go along with the neocon's agenda and invade Iraq. Sex scandal was a façade, a pretext, a lame excuse to cheat the fools. They failed to remove hiw , and assassination JFK style was impossible because Hillary knew what was going on. So they court-appointed their agent into office to make sure that things proceed according to  pre-established agenda ( new Pearl Harbor, wars )

2-Everyone has said and is saying impeach cheney first and then bush or else the trio bush/cheney/pelosi at the same time.

2-That Pelosi has signed a pact to cover up the crimes committed by this administration is well documented

by ramsheyi (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 361 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 4:50:36 AM
 

impeachment

It still doesn't make sense, because impeachment would not necessarily be about torture, it would be about lying to go to Iraq. And if charges were brought against Bush/Cheney, they would be on trial, not the Democrats and when the war started, the Dems were in the minority. At first, people might have thought such tactics were necessary in light of the attack in NY. What's upsetting, is that the Dems aren't smart enough to see that the people realize they were mislead by the Republicans. Or, maybe they're guilty of something worse than what we know. Or, maybe they don't want to curb Bush's power because they hope to use the expanded power when they get in the WH. 

THe fact that Bush is flagrantly violating the Constitution and nothing is done about it is proves that the democracy in the U. S. is over. 

by terk (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 15 comments) on Friday, December 14, 2007 at 8:41:05 AM