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Tag(s): Christianity; Democracy; Empire; God; Government; History; Issues-Advocacy; Jerusalem; Missouri; Peace; (more...) Peace; Religion; Smith; Truth; Utah (less...)
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December 20, 2007 at 10:28:54

Promoted to column top on 12/20/07:
Obfuscating the Mormon Issue: It's The Priesthood Link Not The Church

by Abinadi (Posted by Doug Wallace) Page 1 of 2 page(s)

www.opednews.com

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Mitt Romney’s attempt to narrow the religion issue to a, ‘Shucks folks, there isn’t too much difference between a Mormon and a Christian’ and the blogging discussions it triggered have obfuscated the real issues. It’s like tossing in a packet of aspartame and a little creamer to disguise a bitter cup of coffee.

The Constitution prohibits a litmus test so that a candidate of any persuasion should be able to take a shot at the presidency. That includes Christians, Mormons, Buddhists, Moslems, Jews, Hindus, etc., as well as Satanists, and Atheists! However, that prohibited litmus test is applied to religious beliefs in general not to a specific political agenda which may be sought by that religion. When politics are hidden within a religion, that agenda becomes fair game for discussion and litmus.

Any attempt to narrow the qualification of a candidate to being a true blue Christian is a political scam not supported by any law and rightly so. Besides, what is a true blue Christian?

From the dawn of history those in political power have consistently merged the two issues of government and religion in an effort to create a manageable constituency. It has been responsible for the dumbing down of the populace and more often for instilling fear as a control device.

The real issue for America is not what religious belief or disbelief a candidate cradles in his/her head but rather does that belief system support or advocate a total separation of itself from the rule of government. What is its political agenda? In a democracy that is a true legitimate concern.

While Mormons do believe that Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers (as announced by presidential candidate Mike Huckabee) and have a belief of a pre-existence (before earth mortality), which differs from the other two religions spawned by the Father Abraham story, that doesn’t in itself condemn a Mormon as a theocratician.

Since the Mormon Church is a relatively new religion, a brief review of its history can easily tell us if it supports true separation of church and state.

I recently discussed the issue as far as Mitt Romney is concerned, where I lay out the argument that separation of church and state has not been an attribute of the Mormon Church.Church founder Joseph Smith Jr. Crafted thirteen articles of faith for his church. Among those articles it states: “10. We believe……… that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth…” One will have to consider that the building of a New Jerusalem is a political concept when used for the governing of earth’s inhabitants. Further identifying the location of that New Jerusalem, Smith declared in 1838 that a location at Far West, Jackson County, Missouri was the site of the original Garden of Eden and it was there that Zion (New Jerusalem) would be built. The order of governing the Mormon Church is one of theocracy. I use that term with full knowledge that the God concept of Mormons does not square with that of Christians, Jews or Moslems. However, it is within the context of the Mormon view of God that the church is claimed to be Theocratic. The Catholic Church is theocratic but there is no priesthood nexus between the Pope and layman such as JFK as it is between the Mormon “Prophet” and candidate Mitt Romney.

In that context, God The father (of their view) stands at the top of the pyramid. Jesus Christ the son is the God of this earth. The next officer descending is designated as the current living successor to Founder Joseph Smith or the living mouth piece of God in mortality. This individual, currently Gordon B. Hinckley, is claimed and testified to by all faithful and not so faithful Mormons to be a living, breathing prophet who communicates with God on a daily basis. Or as the late “prophet” Spencer Wooley Kimball declared after I challenged the leadership on black priesthood in 1976, “The channels of communication are unbroken.”

This first subordinate Priest to Christ has selected two counselors who serve in capacity as the First Presidency. This group of three is surrounded by a Quorum of twelve which constitutes the pool from which upon the death of the current mouthpiece, is selected the ascending “prophet seer and revelator”. Longevity is the selection mode in that God directs it by allowing the senior member to out live others and thus succeed to the presidency. The Law of Succession doctrine doesn’t explicitly state that God takes the lives of those not healthy enough to outlive one another but it infers that the succession is the will of God! There are other groups, quorums and councils constituting the “General Authorities” From there in descent are the Presidents of Stakes (Dioceses) and Bishops of Wards (Parishes) In every instance, the person to fill a vacant office is selected by “authorities” above. In fact the Articles of faith state: 5. “…..all men must be called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority…” This is where the order of the priesthood enters into the equation. There are two distinct orders of priesthood: The “Aaronic” or lowest and the “Melchizedek” or higher. There are several degrees in each. The Aaronic has Deacon, Teacher, Priest and Bishop while the Melchizedek has Elder, Seventy and High Priest. The lower concerns temporal matters, the higher spiritual. An axiom often used is, “The priesthood can exist without the church but the church cannot exist without the priesthood”. Paramount to the priesthood is the notion of “KEYS”. That is, one individual possess the Keys, the whole ball of wax. The whole nine yards. Smith’s claim to priesthood first concerned the Aaronic order when he states that John the Baptist, as a resurrected being, ordained him and associate Oliver Cowdrey in the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania on May 15, 1829 during the time they were involved in “translating” the Book of Mormon. This lower priesthood had no authority to organize the true church. However, to cure this defect, according to Smith, the Melchizedek priesthood was restored to the earth from the days of the New Testament Apostles “sometime**” in June 1829 by the ordination of Smith and Cowdrey under the hands of resurrected Biblical personages Peter, James and John whom Jesus had ordained. The “keys” were laid upon Smith. It was essential in the Smith narrative that priesthood predated the organization of the church for without its prior re-establishment there would have been no authority to establish the “one and only true church”. ** It is unfortunate that he couldn’t recall and document the location and the exact day as he did for the Aaronic. This has always posed a weak link for authenticity which is supplemented by strong faith. Therefore, the President, Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the church holds all powers of priesthood. In order for any man and I mean a male, females excluded, to hold any degree of priesthood he must have it delegated to him through the channels of priesthood which operate independently though in concert with the church. This law of the keys also means that only the prophet can receive revelation for the church. That living person to day is Gordon B. Hinckley. Example: a Bishop is the officer head of a ward (parish) but his calling as a Bishop (being the highest office of the Aaronic priesthood) can only come under ordination to the office of a High Priest (unless he is a direct descendant of biblical Aaron brother of Moses). And so on with his two counselors. Likewise a Stake President (diocese) and counselors can only hold that office if he/they are an ordained High Priest of the Melchizedek priesthood the keys of which are held by the prophet. So the priesthood is like a tree upon which the leaves of church hang or the skeleton upon which hangs the flesh. On top is the head or the crown. Disassemble the church and the priesthood would still continue to exist.Mormon detractors to my referenced article attempted to play down the value of a high priest in Mormon layman ministry but that office of priesthood has to be held if one is to function in a higher structured church leadership role. It usually takes years of service and obedience to attain it. While church members are given the opportunity ( and expected) to express consent for any individual who may be appointed (“called”) they have no voice in the selection and are subject to discipline if they should question the selection with a nay vote. Thus works theocracy within Mormonism. The same tactic is employed in dictatorships where the duty to consent is enforced but the right to dissent is non existent and punished! In early Mormon settlements the priesthood order of the church selected the political as well as the military order. In Nauvoo it was Joseph Smith at the helm as President-Prophet, City Mayor and commander Lieutenant General of the 5,000 man militia known as the Nauvoo Legion. In the Utah territory before the Federal territorial Government existed, Brigham Young held the high political office as well as head of the religious order. When Johnston’s army was sent to Utah to quell the Mormon Rebellion by President James Buchanan in 1857, the subordinate priesthood/church authorities to Young held the State Militia offices. And they had been organized to fight the U.S. army. “Up Awake Ye Defenders of Zion’ written to the tune of The Red White and Blue was a rallying song of the era. It was in this context of hyped-up battle anticipation that the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened in 1857 by the territorial militia under the command of Brigham Young. This past September the church finally admitted complicity of the church but blamed it on the local church leaders who were also the militia commanders under the priesthood/church order. In a democracy under chain of command the buck stops with the president but not in a theocracy! See Mountain Meadows Massacre (1950) Juanita Brooks: We can conclude therefore that when the church had complete control of a geographical area that it functioned as a theocracy. That it was not allowed to do that under the Constitution was a lesson never learned by Smith or Young and only tolerated by successive leaders. In Utah it is still a shadow government, I have not discussed herein the failed practice known as the United Order which Smith introduced during his theocratic rule. That order required all members of the church to deed all their property to the church (Smith) for redistribution by the church (Smith). That program predated Marxism by seventy years but smells of communism. It is still contemplated that in the full bloom of the Kingdom Of God (the Church) that order will be re-instated. The reader can obtain a detailed discussion of the United Order in Ed Decker’s latest Book, MY KINGDOM COME ed@saintsalive.com which also discusses at length the Mormon Empire quest!

So how does this all square with the presidential candidacy of Mitt Romney?

Romney holds the office of a High priest. He is subordinate to Gordon B. Hinckley who holds the Keys to the priesthood. Romney is dependent upon him for his church/priesthood-active relationship with God. Even as US President, Romney cannot defy any ruling or direction given to him by Hinckley who speaks for God, as affecting the government of the United States without subjecting himself to discipline for his membership in the Mormon Church. And thus his eternal welfare would be at stake. A dedicated, brainwashed Mormon such as Romney wouldn’t even question such a directive. He will consider it the will of God. Now if we didn’t have all the evidence of political subterfuge and empire quest that wouldn’t be a problem for us.

Romney should be asked the question at the next debate, “ As a subordinate priesthood holder to the Mormon President, What would you do if you were ordered by the Mormon president to do or not do something that ran counter to the will of the Congress, the courts, the people or of the Constitution ?” IT WOULD DO WELL TO PLACE HIM UNDER OATH TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. Ed Decker, author of My Kingdom Come (supra) asks the question: “Suppose that Romney is elected president and the Mormon Church should crown him prophet, seer, revelator and earth king?” To fit right into the world of the American Empire prepared under Bush! (Italics added are mine.) But beyond that question we need to look at exactly what has been “prophesied” by a Mormon leader on the issue of one world government.The Following extracts are quoted verbatim from the pages of Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. Mckonkie, Doctrinarian Son-in-law of past Mormon Prophet. Joseph Fielding Smith. 1966 edition. Under the topic of Kingdom. Kingdom of God: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon or LDS) as it is now constituted is the kingdom of God on earth; nothing more needs to be done to establish the kingdom. The Church and kingdom are one and the same. (p. 415) The Church or kingdom is not a democracy; legislation is not enacted by the body of people comprising the organization; they do not make the laws governing themselves. The Church is a kingdom, The Lord Jesus Christ is the Eternal King and the President of the Church, the mouthpiece of God on earth, is the earthly king. All things come to the Church from the King of the kingdom in heaven through the king of the kingdom on earth.… There is of course, the democratic principle of common consent where-under the people may accept or reject what the Lord offers to them. Acceptance brings salvation; rejection leads to damnation. During the millennium, the kingdom of God will continue on earth, but in that day it will be both an ecclesiastical and a political kingdom. That is the Church (which is the kingdom) will have the rule and government of the world given to it. When inspired teachers speak of the future setting up of the kingdom of God on earth, they have reference to the millennial day when the “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ; and he shall reign forever and forever.” (Rev. 11:15) Daniel also saw the day when “the saints of the most High (LDS I added) shall take and posses the kingdom forever and ever.” (Dan 7:18, 22, 27.) The Prophet (Joseph Smith) prayed that the present ecclesiastical kingdom of God on earth might roll forth that the future political and kingdom of God on earth might come. (Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) 65; Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1 pp 229-246.) (p. 416) Additional documentation concerns the hearsay prophesy that the day would come when the Constitution would hang by a thread and it would be saved by the “Elders of but not by the church”

Considering the fact that the Mormon Church was declared by its founder and, its present day leader that it is an ecclesiastical/ physical/political kingdom, the idea that nothing about it can be discussed in a political sense because it is a religion and therefore out of bounds under litmus prohibition is utter nonsense.

As I stated in my prior article, Joseph Smith organized the Council of the Fifty of the church to bring about one-world government. The council in turn crowned him “Earth King”. Since the church has been identified by the founder as the Kingdom of God on earth, it still exists today and has crowned Gordon B. Hinckley “Earth King” subordinate only to Jesus Christ to act as Vice-Regent of Christ in political and ecclesiastical matters affecting planet Earth!

For a full discussion of this doctrine, see Quest for Empire: The Political Kingdom of God and the Council of Fifty in Mormon History. By KLAUS J. HANSEN. 1967 East Lansing: Michigan State University Press. Also see Kingdom on the Mississippi Revisted by Roger D Launius (300 pp) and Equal Rites: The Book of Mormon Masonry by Clyde R Forsberg (364 pp).

In a futile attempt to bring that theocratic condition upon the earth before he died, in the early 1840s Smith dispatched Orson Hyde, a Jewish convert to Mormonism, to the Holy Land to bless and dedicate it for the return of Israel as stated under his tenth of thirteen articles: “We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the ten tribes;….” When that failed to immediately happen, the priesthood repeatedly sent emissaries to bless and re-dedicate the land for the return of the Jews a total of some five times. God didn’t seem to be listening.

In 1917, 75 years after Orson Hyde’s dedication of Palestine for the return of Israel, the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917 in the UK addressed to Lord Rothschild spoke in support of the gathering of Israel in Palestine. Finally by fiat, the United Nations in 1948 created the nation of Israel against the interests of the Palestinian people who as descendants of the same Abraham were equally entitled to the land. For that vision of equal rights, we have to discount the dishonesty and subterfuge occasioned by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in cheating Abraham’s Arab descendants of the promise of God. Neither the Mormon Council of the Fifty, the Mormon Prophet nor the United Nations had authority to do such a thing if one is to believe the Old Testament stripped of the dishonesty favoring the descendants of Judah.

With Smith’s declaration that the New Jerusalem or Zion would be built at Far West (Jackson County ) Missouri, his actions or that of the Council of the YTFIF in dedicating the Holy Land for the return of the Jews would seem to be counter productive to the scheme of the Missouri plot.

However, the scripture, “The law shall go forth from Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem”, (Isaiah 2:1-5) (paraphrased) posed a serious hindrance to Smith. Smith identified two separate places to fit into that scripture and the former could not be fulfilled until the latter had been consummated. To him it made sense that Israel would have to be re-established in the Holy Land before the Lord could utter His word (gospel) from Jerusalem and validate laws issuing forth from Zion in America.

In this endeavor, there is a conflict between the Jewish freemasonry Zionists and the Mormon Zionists***. The former anticipate that Jerusalem will be the center of world control while Mormons intend it to be in Missouri with themselves in control. [Or in Salt Lake City pending establishment of the temple in “The Garden Of Eden” in Far West (Independence) Missouri.]

In Christian end time theories, the world will come to an end with its destruction after it has been subjected to a thousand year rule of peace under Jesus. What has never been discussed in scripture however, exactly….. How is Jesus, the “Prince of Peace” going to maintain peace for a thousand years in the absence of the use of violence or force? Will he hypnotize everyone? Will he hold all life in a state of suspended animation? If so where is their free agency? What good would living like a robot produce?

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12 comments

John is a family physician in a small Iowa rural community. He is happily married, the father of two children, and active in his Christian church. His hobbies include photography and tinkering with computers. His passions are philosophy, science, and the incredibly critical point in the space-time continuum that is Now.
John BoweryJohn is a family physician in a small Iowa rural community. He is happily married, the father of two children, and active in his Christian church. His hobbies include photography and tinkering with computers. His passions are philosophy, science, and the incredibly critical point in the space-time continuum that is Now.

Thoroughly researched religious bigotry

"11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

Those are the simple statements found in the Articles of Faith which are obviously not supportive of a theocracy of any sort. That is what the rank-and-file Mormon believes and acts on; not some nuanced version of Joseph Smith's political history. And nothing in Mitt Romney's record is in conflict with this either. (And, again, for the record, I am one of many Mormon's who are NOT currently supporting Governor Romney for president.)

There is no cabal of Latter Day Saint New World Order conspirators and, even if there were, it would be irrelevant. Abinidi, maybe your experience as a brainwashed Mormon has left you intellectually scarred for life. But please do not hold that against the honest and patriotic church members who love the constitution and would fight to the death to defend YOUR religious and political freedoms.

Go Ron Paul!

by John Bowery (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 20 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:00:26 PM

electronic technician, truth seeker
Bob Gormleyelectronic technician, truth seeker

Much Difference Between Christianity and Mormonism

Essentially, a Mormon buys their way into heaven. A Mormon cannot go

through the temple ceremony unless it has been verified that at least 10% of his/her income has gone to the church. If you do not go through the temple ceremony you cannot enter into any of the "celestial kingdoms" reserved for people having gone through the temple ceremony. Simple logic

shows that you are "buying your way to heaven".

As it says in the Bible: "Salvation is a free gift lest any man should boast".

Most of that 10% goes to the "apostles and prophet" of the Mormon church for investments not even remotely spiritual.

As always, it's not the common folk who are at fault, but the "religious"

leaders. Mormonism is a false religion that puts unnecessary burdens upon

it's members.

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 937 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:31:20 PM

Doing the right thing is the most important thing.
PenstemonDoing the right thing is the most important thing.

Get Your Facts Straight Bob

Bob,

Most of the Apostle and Prophets of the Mormon church are self-made men who do not even draw an income from the Church--at all. And the ones that do make less than mid level managers at most corporations. If what you were saying were true, there would have been a scandal by now on Church finances. There is, hasn't, and won't be.

Oh, and we don't buy our way into Heaven. We work hard at our beliefs because we absolutely love Jesus Christ and want to serve him. Whether we get into Heaven or not is up to him, not us. And certainly not you. Your hatred toward our beliefs is so self-evident. Hatred does not come from Christ. Whether you confess Him or not, if you have hatred toward others, you are not Christian.

by Penstemon (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 2 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:42:40 PM

electronic technician, truth seeker
Bob Gormleyelectronic technician, truth seeker

I Have my Facts Straight

Because I love Jesus I hate when his commands are perverted as in the Mormon church. Christianity is more than loving everyone and saying "have a nice day". God's laws are the top priority and man's perversions of his laws are an affront to him. The Mormon church has self-appointed apostles and prophets that were not appointed by God.

The Mormon church puts unnecessary burdens upon the people which are

man made and not of God. For instance: the prohibition of certain foods like

tea, coffee, etc. Jesus declared all foods to be clean and to be taken in thanksgiving. Do you really follow Jesus' ways when you prohibit certain foods that he has declared to be clean?

Jesus was never about money, but about giving from the heart. To make

tithing a mandatory requirement for your temple ceremony is an affront to God. I indeed have my facts straight. I have conversed many times with

young Mormon missionaries and even have attended a few Mormon services.

So I do know what Mormonism is all about.

I know about the prohibitions placed upon Mormons/missionaries regarding television, etc. These are all man-made rules.

Whether the Mormon elders receive exorbitant salaries I do not know.

What I do know is that they have their hands in many worldly investments.

Get out of the Mormon brainwashing before it is too late. It will set you free!

I am not a God hater or an atheist, but I hate when people are manipulated when they don't have to be.

by Bob Gormley (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 937 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:59:16 PM

Doing the right thing is the most important thing.
PenstemonDoing the right thing is the most important thing.

Please, People How Many Mormon Conspiracies Can There Be?

What astounds me about this editorial is how embarrassingly out in left field the author would have to be to even concieve of such a thing. How many Mormons do you know that are actively working to overthrow the goverment? None! And if they did, they'd be excommunicated. Our history is a history of submitting the rules and requirements of the Goverment! We don't even go into countries and proselyte unless we have a permit--unlike Evangelicals and Catholics. When was the last time you heard the Mormon church take a political stance. NEVER!

That you would go to such extreme efforts to research something that does not exists puts you in the same hall of expose writers who believe there was no Holocaust and September 11 was planned by the US Goverment. Look around, buddy. Mormons don't behave the way you do.

by Penstemon (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 2 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:34:08 PM

Undergraduate degree in political science and philosophy: summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa; with postgraduate work in political economics. Postgraduate degree is a juris doctorate. I am a voracious reader and, although I make no claim to expertise, have self studied in logic, linguistics, theology, theoretical physics, macroeconomics, technical and fundamental market analysis, world history, and many other subjects, which I believed at the time helped explain the world around me.

...

to see more of bio, click on member name
W.M.L.Undergraduate degree in political science and philosophy: summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa; with postgraduate work in political economics. Postgraduate degree is a juris doctorate. I am a voracious reader and, although I make no claim to expertise, have self studied in logic, linguistics, theology, theoretical physics, macroeconomics, technical and fundamental market analysis, world history, and many other subjects, which I believed at the time helped explain the world around me.

...

to see more of bio, click on member name

CONCERNS

I do not know the truth about Mormonism. You tell me a lot in your second paragraph, though. Also, many people fall away from mainstream Christianity, but one seldom sees or hears them writing or speaking of its inherent evil. But many of those who fall away from Mormonism devote much time, even their lives, to persuading others of the evils of the creed. Why do these people feel such a need? By the way, I have spent a lot of time in Utah, and it is absurd to say that the Mormon Church does not directly impact the lives of non-Mormons on a daily basis. So the Church has no problem passing laws that affect other people and other faiths.

by W.M.L. (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 387 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 4:59:12 PM

More later....
carolm62More later....

This is just a thought....

Actually, I see plenty of postings on the internet by ex-Christians who have left the faith, but converted to atheism or agnosticism. And they are quite hostile indeed. I don't know if they spend much time persecuting the particuilar churches they left, though.

My own feeling is that mainstream Christianity really doesn't have much power within it. They have plenty of political power, but what I mean is the power to change lives. I think that if mainstream Christianity had this power to change hearts and minds, you would not see so much unChristlike behavior being such a big part of the program. If these churches had the power to convert followers to Christ, they would be acting Christlike, not like hateful bigots.

by carolm62 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Friday, December 21, 2007 at 4:35:53 PM

Just me.
jbhJust me.

Careful omissions

For those intersted, here is the source of the above quote. This is also pertinant:

"We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied"

as is the rest of D&C 134 for that matter. It seems that it was also carefully omitted from the article.

by jbh (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:38:06 PM

Hater of Nazis above all. Hobbies include activism, military model building, military history, exciting and vital conversation with retired crooks. Retired
John HanksHater of Nazis above all. Hobbies include activism, military model building, military history, exciting and vital conversation with retired crooks. Retired

Jesus

Jesus hated phonies and blockheads. Nobody is safe. If you belong to any religion you will entertain triumphalist fantasies and you will think you are better morally than anyone else.

by John Hanks (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1376 comments) on Friday, December 21, 2007 at 1:11:55 PM

Retired General Contractor and ATTORNEY AT LAWCredentials include pressuring the LDS church to accept racial equalitywith Black men some 30 years ago by public action.
Doug Wallace Retired General Contractor and ATTORNEY AT LAWCredentials include pressuring the LDS church to accept racial equalitywith Black men some 30 years ago by public action.

PREACHING MORMONISM FROM A PULPIT OF FICTION

PREACHING MORMONISM FROM A PULPIT OF FICTION

Well meaning devout Mormons who wish to point out wayward errors of former believing Mormons are completely ineffective because they fail to understand that their arguments have no fulcrum. This is because they preach from a platform of fiction known to ex-Mormons.

FACTS THAT ONLY THE IGNORANT DISPUTE:

There never was a race or civilization of people who inhabited the ancient Americas as identified in the Book of Mormon (BOM). DNA has proven it.
Despite archeological searching for over 178 years, not one physical trace or artifact of such people has been uncovered.
The obvious conclusion is that the BOM is a work of fiction.
Since it is fiction, it can not be validly used to engage in religious discussion.
Since it is fiction, the names contained in it are fictitious.
Since the names are fictitious so are the events.
Since the characters are fictitious there never was a Mormon or Moroni or Alama.
Since no Moroni then Joseph Smith (J.S.) lied about the plates.
Since he lied about the plates his story of the translation from plates is a lie.
Since there was no translation from non existent plates he lied to cover his source.
Since he lied to cover the source, the work, being fiction, was crafted by another.
Goodbye Book of Mormon for scriptural fulcrum of the gospel.
The Pearl of Great Price (POG) is another scam as the Egyptian scrolls from which taken has been proven to be a funeral record of an Egyptian named HOR.
The POG being a scam, the Books of Moses and Abraham are fiction.
Since they are fiction they may not be used to prove history or the gospel.
The Doctrine and Covenants while created to codify the J.S. Jr. scam ofthe “Restoration” by way of the two proven scams (BOM) (POG) is itself a scamfor J.S. placed words in the mouth of his “God” to give credence to his “Mission”and make himself look good.
Last and not least. The First Vision Story is a scam. Early missionaries had only The BOM to sell their story of the restoration. Not until 1842 was the story of the first vision created. If it had been a true fact in chronological order (first event) it would have been written and used as the foundation of the restoration story before 1842 as it has been since that time. It too is a J.S. scam.So the best advice to give yourself is not to preach and give advice to others but remain silent or better yet do some real digging for your own search of truth. If you do this with pure motive you will become like so many hundreds of thousands (especially returned missionaries) who no longer use Joseph Smith’s lies for crutches in their lives.

NO we don’t want to hear it! If you want to learn we’ll help otherwise … stay ignorant! Or get smart on your own and Google it! Truth is just that close!

by Doug Wallace (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments) on Friday, December 21, 2007 at 1:21:25 PM

More later....
carolm62More later....

Here's a Novel Idea!

Wouldn't it be something if those persons hostile to the LDS church ever entertained the idea that THEY might be mistaken about some of their beliefs concerning Mormons...? Imagine it! Instead of saying that 13,000,000 Mormons don't know what their church teaches, or that 13,000,000 Mormons are trying to deceive them, maybe the thought could occur to them, however briefly, that maybe THEY don't know what the LDS church teaches....

But sigh. I really don't know if that's possible. In my experience, whenever someone hostile to the church gets corrected about some faulty information they have, they very stubbornly cling to it. This misinformation is very dear to them.

Not long ago I had an encounter in which a co-worker was telling other co-workers that Mormons get excommunicated if they ever get divorced. I gently corrected her, explaining that divorce is not grounds for excommunication in the Mormon church, but some of the things that might get you excommunicated, like adultery, might also result in a divorce. I went on to explain that I have a brother who has been divorced and he is absolutely not been excommunicated.

Well, instead of admitting that she was in error, she became very hostile and accused me of calling her pastor a liar. I had known nothing of her pastor being involved in misinformed views, but I told her that I thought her pastor must have been equally misinformed, and likely did not intend to deliberately deceive her.

The trouble is, she continues to believe this because it came from her pastor! What I had to say carried no weight at all. I was just "ignorant of what my own church teaches...."

Wouldn't it be something if these folks could ever consider that they might not know what they are talking about? And wouldn't it be nice if they could consider that thought BEFORE they publish big anti-Mormon rants that make themselves look foolish....?

by carolm62 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Friday, December 21, 2007 at 4:22:44 PM

Ignorance is not foolish it is pathetic.

There are misconceptions about most everything. However, a presumption to "know" what you understand to be true when in fact it isn't is pathetic. Until you have researched all that you can as former Mormons have (and have gotten out) you don't know anything except that which you have been brainwashed to believe for the benefit of the scoundels who perpetuate your ignorance Take the challenge and prove by research that it is true and if you find it isn't-- bail out if the opposite stay with it. It could be the most rewarding experience of your life. Hypnotic "testimonies" don't make it true. WE'VE BEEN THERE WITH LIKELY FAR MORE EXPERIENCE AT IT THAN YOU. SORRY!

by Doug Wallace (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 17 comments) on Friday, December 21, 2007 at 5:18:39 PM