Mr. Janson's article, "John McCain shot down by heroic blah, blah, blah", is typical of the kind of established "conventional wisdom" that continues to be written despite being debunked by scholars far more expert on the subject.

The United States did NOT "refuse" to sign the Geneva Agreement. The US was an observer State not a signatory.

The comparison of Ho Chi Mihn to George Washington is absurd and is further indication of the startling ignorance of Mr. Janson. Janson is, apparently, one of those who still believe that Ho was, at heart, a nationalist filled with democratic ideals, rather than the international communist is quite obviously was. I do not suggest that Ho wasn't a nationalist but, rather, he was first and foremost an ardent believer in International Communism.

The reason the northern Communists where assured of electoral victory is not difficult to understand. Ho had ordered the destruction of all other political organizations and carried out muderous campaigns to destroy anyone who opposed his particular brand of communism.  Contemporary scholars have uncovered evidence indicating that Ho's policies resulted in the murders of tens of thousands of Vietnamese.

And while I, too, admire Dr. King, it must be said that when he spoke at the River Side Curch in 1967, he clearly did not have an in depth understanding of either the conflict or the reasons behind our involvement. Clearly, Mr. Janson is also lacking that same, basic, understanding.

And who in the world would care a wit about what Mohammad Ali might think? Chomsky, Russell, Satre, now there's a group of America haters if there ever was one. Why would or, should McCain give a second thought to what those folks might say?

"Nazi-like American military use of napalm, high altitude bombing and free fire zones." Mr. Janson betrays himself. His ignorance is matched only by his obvious liberal bias.

In closing I will say directly that I do NOT support John McCain. My reasons are quite different from Mr. Janson's. I would suggest Mr. Janson spend a bit more time reading up on the subject of Vietnam. I would recommend Moyar's "Triumph Forsaken" to begin with. As time passes, more and more previously classified  documents, from North Vietnam, Russia and China have been made available to historians. The picture, relating to America's Vietnam involvement has to be viewed in the context of this new information. 

by mikeusmc (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 12 comments) on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 at 10:22:41 AM

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Yes, the article is convention wisdom. Wisdom denied as corporate media hails McCain a hero. One does not attribute heroism to the pilots of the greatest military power in the history of mankind bombing the innocent population of a small French colony. One does attribute heroism to the little nation’s “blah, blah, blah” [as Mr. Mikeusmc unkindly describes them] defenders who lost millions of their countrymen.

In Mr. Mikeusmc’s kind response to a straightforward news media quoting article, the “scholars far more expert on the subject” are not identified. The author has Vietnamese family, has taught and performed in Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh City and other towns, throughout the 1990s.”

The United States, though an influential superpower observer during the Geneva Conference, did not respect the Agreements afterward, blocking and sabotaging its provisions.

Mr. Mikeusmc is at odds with Eisenhower regarding Ho Chi Minh, and Ike was surely no less an anti-communist.

As too other ‘scholars’, there are always plenty of establishment writers willing to write favorable histories of the U.S. military and covert CIA activities in the weak nations of the Third World.

That millions should have died to keep a Ho Chi Minh from being president? Notice the lack of U.S. interest in getting at today’s communist leaders in Vietnam and especially China, even maybe North Korea. Only the government of little Cuba, remains worthy of some similar cold war hostile attitude. Cuba has never fought the full U.S. Armed Forces to a stand still as have the other three.

Mr Mikeusmc's denigration of Rev. King’s understanding, the patriotism of Muhammad Ali, Noam Chomsky and the humanity of Nobel laureates Russell and Sartre, would indicate that it is Mr Mikeusmc, who does not believe in a United States of America acting in manner which everyone could be happy with.

Murderous war in other people’s countries is certainly something all humanity should hate - the wars, that is, not the to be pitied pathetic bringers of war.

Being against that use of napalm, high altitude bombing and free fires zones does not indicate a “liberal Bias.” It is the reaction of any really good American.

by Jay Janson (105 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 117 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 at 4:35:35 PM

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It's fair to question McCain on his long political career, but I'd say questioning his service as a young pilot was not only over the line, but not even necessary.

Unless you have some specific evidence showing McCain's political views at the time, we must assume that he was another soldier doing their best to follow orders, like John Kerry and so many others - and that the fault for any unjust war lay with the political and military leadership at the time.

As you decry the "lock step" media of today, let's be better here, using facts and opinions without the slander or spin that Hannity, Limbaugh and Swiftboat Vets use.

State your case and let the reader decide who is heroic or shameful -anyone in any war considers themselves heroic. But your article seems to blame individual soldiers for the Vietnam conflict. To criticize McCain for not disobeying orders and joining Jane Fonda's pro-Vietnam crusade is not plausible today, let alone during the time in question.

Let me be the first to say you could take issue with McCain's war hawking, flip flopping, brown-nosing Evangelicals and much much more. Why sully your own argument by swiftboating his career as a young airman?

by Gustav Wynn (77 articles, 65 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 421 comments [34 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 at 8:23:57 PM

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The article is about war promoting corporate media giving McCain and any and all candidates for office hero credentials for having participated in a shameful war. (Makes one jump to enlist in the next U.S. whichever war, doesn’t it – real good for tricking younger generations not to question.)

The war was immoral! Both King Jr. and Kerry called it an atrocity. (Difference is Kerry reenlisted before he came to that conclusion. Ali, King Jr., Fonda, Chomsky, and millions of Americans did not have to go there to know it was a horrible wrong of holocaust proportions perpetrated on an innocent colonial population.) Rather than be drafted tens of thousands went to Canada and beyond, or even jail if they could not be recognized as conscientious objectors - they did not shame their family and country and kill innocent people.

Mr. Wynn wrote “we must assume that he was another soldier doing their best to follow orders, like John Kerry and so many others”

Just like soldiers of the Wehrmacht, but no one refers to them as heroes. The “just following orders” is of course the traditional defense of military being tried for war crimes. But the article does not accuse McCain - merely points out that one expects he would have been aware of the nature of the war, and knowledgeable people were denouncing it. He is after all running for president. Interest in a candidate’s use of his education and commitment to justice and democracy is entirely appropriate.

Those who willing followed immoral orders deserve our compassion, not our praise. The Vets for Peace organization is filled with veterans angry for having been duped, sorry for what they did to foreign brothers and sisters, and determined to warn youths being recruited by similar deceit.

Perhaps Mr. Wynn only scanned the article he so severely criticizes. John Kerry’s fellow swift boat veterans sought to smear Kerry’s character by claiming that Kerry did not follow orders well and did not deserve his Purple Heart and Silver Star. No need to seek to punish McCain. He did his prison time. Kerry has had some back and forth on the war. First, enlisted warrior, then condemner of the war, then pride in it and finally nostalgia. Therefore we wrote:

Monday, February 4, 2008
Respect Vietnamese Patriots Gunned Down by "Beloved" Swift Boats
Jolted to read in Jan. 23, Huffington Post article, "Swiftboating", John Kerry's insensitive references to, "the Swift Boats we loved while we were in uniform on the Mekong Delta" -"the boats we honored when we were in uniform in Vietnam". Kerry experienced the death these boats brought, called the war an atrocity. Remarks especially sickening for those who, like Jane Fonda, sided with Vietnam fighting Japan, France, and U.S


The current American point of view, dismissing any mention of the very existence of Vietnamese, beyond the communists who required extirpation, is galling to the author who has Vietnamese family, taught and performed in Hanoi during the 1990s - all of whose students lost family, “killed by the Americans”, they would say with typical Buddhist equanimity.

This heartless attitude is endemic in the U.S. and was applied in this week of deep sorrow on TV for the now 4000 Americans who have perished in Iraq. A similar round number reached of Iraqis, say 400,000 minimum, is of zero interest. They are just not worth mentioning, nor taken into consideration.

So your servant wrote: Wednesday, September 5, 2007
Pity America! Bombed, Invaded, Occupied by Vietnamese. Now by Iraqi and Afghani!
So terrible to recall that the combined air forces of the Vietnamese, Laotians and Cambodians bombed our beautiful American homeland with twice the tonnage dropped during WWII, even carpet bombing areas of Mexico and Canada. Today, the desperate wasteful consumer society of gas guzzling Iraq and Afghanistan bombs and occupies the U.S. to control the huge Texas oil fields. Everyone wonders who will be invaded next.

by Jay Janson (105 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 117 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Mar 25, 2008 at 8:05:26 PM

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