innocent fathers?

Not just polygamy, but older men having multiple "young breeding girls", some well below age for marriage? Somehow, I think that fact makes your comparison with other churches moot. 

I am amazed that this is called religion. I am amazed that anyone would agree that it is a religion.  

by John R Moffett (80 articles, 14 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 610 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 9:39:25 AM
 

Really?

I fail to see how it is different from any other mainstream religion. It's just more open about its perversion.

 Either way, it's a real shame that those kids are going back to live with those child molesters.

by Rev. Robert Vinciguerra (32 articles, 5 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 50 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 12:44:31 AM
 

Guilty monsters

I thoroughly agree with you. FLDS is a cult designed to gratify the needs of those who run it, at the expense of the women and children. And it has defenders here, quite amazingly

The FLDS community in Arizona has an unusually high rate of Fumarase Deficiency, an extremely rare (unless you're in the FLDS compounds) and compromising congenital condition due to "inbreeding" (e.g., cousins marrying). Why? Because the charges of incest are correct, this is the proof. The DNA tests will demonstrate this. But the doubters will come up with more excuses.

I wondered how the judges on the Texas court would survive this absurd decision - a bait and switch in which they mixed up evidence to remove, which was well supplied, with evidence to convict thereby saying that there was no evidence.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 6:44:56 AM
 

When the raid went public

there were a couple of articles here on OPN praising the state of Texas for whisking these children from the life of "hell" they were asunder.

I and a small handful of other bloggers were the only ones out of a line of 12-15 supporters, that condemned what the state did.

In no way do I condone the FLDS and its perverted men who want to prey on young adolescent girls who are becoming women, just because they can and use a lame religion to justify their means.

What I object to is the government intrusion into the private lives of people like the Weaver family of Ruby Rigde, the Waco incident and others I can't recall or don't know about.

I agree with the authors analogy of the Catholic Church whoes priests have been sheltered for decades, even century's. How I desire to see these bastions of hypocrisy brought to their knees, if not outright bankruptcy.

by Stanimal (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 18 diaries, 493 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 1:46:00 PM
 

Face the reality!

I am amazed that this is called religion. I am amazed that anyone would agree that it is a religion.

Why? What makes the FLDS any less of a religion?

It is built upon blind faith to people who purport to be the voice of god. It is built upon mythology (otherwise known as lies). It is used as a means of mind control. And finally, as we see in the evidence exposed, such as underage girls being pregnant, is there any doubt that sexual abuse was a part of the mix, just as much as it was with the Catholics, and just as much as the Baptist preachers who use their positions of trust to gain entry into the pants of underage kids? Then there's that weirdo from Waco who wanted to re-write the bible, and fuck everyone in his "flock". And let's not forget Jim Jones and the Flavor-aide party in French Guiana!

So, where is the non-religious part of the FLDS? As far as I can tell, they are pretty much on par with the rest of the self-righteous, religious butt-fuckers in the above list.

I can't help but laugh when people self-righteously point their fingers at cults when it is clear to me that cultism is a rampant disease! I have yet to meet any religiously pushy person who isn't an adherent to cultist mentalities.

On a personal level, I find the whole episode disgusting, but par for the course.

There is no one innocent in this sad story! Not the mothers who continue to lie to themselves. Not the "fathers" (read pedophiles) who are obviously as emotionally mature as the children they rape. And not the state that is now caving instead of doing it's job; protecting innocents. The only innocent ones left are the girls and boys who have yet to be sodomized for the aggrandizement of a god who supposedly was born here, is the brother of Satan, and smoked pot with the Aboriginal Americans.

Religion sucks!

Blessed be!
Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 5:55:45 PM
 

Brainwashing at its ugliest

There must be at least two kinds of brainwashing. One is wholesale brainwashing, as is done by the MSM, the consumerism corporate masters and yes, the Roman church. 

Then there is individual and small group brainwashing, and here the examples are legion: the Hale-bopp comet chasers who lay down in their new Nikes and died; Waco's David Koresh and his doomed flock; Jim Jones and his 900 koolaid drinkers; numbers of cults that lay low and have agendas that make the Manson Family look tame.

   These cultists may claim to be Mormons, but like so many others, their primary goal is to separate their members from any connections except the cult. They believe Warren Jeffs is the Prophet, just as great as Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and probably Jesus Christ.  Jeffs is the son and grandson of Prophets, all part of the incestuous practices that produced him. He claims divine right as a descendant.

   Most of us have no idea what it is to be a robotic member of these cults. They use fear of Hell and Damnation from the earliest ages to turn their members into "sweet" slaves for the old men, who deflower them en masse up on the third floor of that so-called temple near Eldorado.

Locals believe Sarah, the "probabal cause" caller is dead or spirited away to another state. The cult cranked up their propaganda machine and had the local press eating out of their collective hands. The state people saw children whose evidence of abuse was their protruding abdomens; these quaint hairdos and long dresses were a facade for women who carry cell phones and wear aviator's shades. They had state child services people running over each other just trying to figure out who was who.

The Swat approach: the state looked foolish when they took armored vehicles into the ranch; however, they were met by men armed with automatic weapons and nobody knew what to expect. Who knows, if Jeffs had been there, it might have been another Waco. I fear it could still happen, as the courts have ordered restoration of the status quo.

You're right, only the children were, and still are, innocent. That will change now that they are back in slavery. The mothers were and are, enablers for the sick practices of the cult against the boys and girls.

by Jay Farrington (13 articles, 2 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 159 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 10:30:31 PM
 

Dangerous grouping.

Attacks based on political groups has proven to be OK.

These are "Test" attacks on groups for religion affiliation.

Soon it will be dangerous to belong to any group not sponsored by the prevailing government.

Hile Hitler! His government lives on in America.

Where are your papers? Your papers are not in order!

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 608 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 12:23:29 AM
 

Why the State attacked them but not Catholic churches

We have to get into the habit of differentiating what is RIGHT by the standards of freedom + justice, versus why this government does something.  Sometimes the people are happy for an action by this system -- but for very different reasons than why they did it!

The u.s. is no champion of equality for women, let alone children -- no more than a champion for freedom of religion.  Even though I am glad that these children have been separated from the twisted men who feel they OWN the women and kids, I would never trust this system to do it justly or for the right reasons.  If they were truly for saving children from sexual abuse via religious leaders, we'd have seen mass raids on churches and laws governing cathechism.  Similarly, if the government had been trying to "save" Philadelphian familes from MOVE, they wouldn't have burned down entire city blocks to do it, let alone shooting women and children trying to flee. 

We are certainly seeing an attack on a community that has purposely circumvented the government in everything from taxes and business to consumerism.  Throw in the Entertainment Factor of showing these folks on the nightly news and media obsessed with red carpet fashion and makeover shows, and this was one phone call (from the minor who said she was abused) the police/government jumped on.  It has been great reality tv.  Less war, more fashion don'ts.

And of course they did it %$#&-backwards.  An uber-patriarchal group of men who insist they OWN their Stepford Wives, with their own daughters as potential concubines?  Only another patriarchy would say, "Yes -- let's raid them and take the KIDS AND WOMEN away.  Not the men.  Not the leadership.  The VICTIMS!" 

I can't imagine how traumatized these kids are now, and no amount of good treatment or careful placement will heal it.  I'm glad at least they are temporarily away from the perverts who run the community; but who knows where they will end up, and how safe and free that place will be.  Afterall, this is America, land of the free porn and the home of the enslaved.  Twenty bucks says in 5 years one of these girls will be on the cover of Maxim or Playboy.

The only way to really cast this chapter in simple black or white is to imagine what a people's army would do if this group existed under socialism.  ("WWAPAD?")  I imagine conversations between these women and open-minded professionals and "everyday" women about what the problems really are, what are the roles of women in other cultures and communities (because they can't pick what's best for them if all they know is what they live!,) and if there are solutions that absolutely save children from exploitation, but also that respect the PROCESS of how some of these members may choose different lives -- and need outside support to do so. 

We don't have to accept the current terms of debate -- not on this event or any other.  If we're just taking sides, we're missing the opportunity to imagine a better world -- without patriarchy, without brainwashing, without sexual abuse, and without a government working for the interests of 2% of its population at the expense of the rest of the planet.  And doing it all in the name of Democracy.

by Mars Caulton (1 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 82 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 1:06:27 AM
 

Let me understand this

The Catholic Church had problems with priests sexually abusing children so the FLDS gets a "get out of jail free card"?

Or is it that the Philadelphia attack on a community, a dreadful and fatal act, somehow makes it OK for you to oppose what the Texas authorities did?

Or is it that the men were guilty and the children were victimized by being removed to foster care where they were no longer victimized by the men?

Or is it that the Bush - Cheney war criminals taint every single act of every single government authority throughout the country negating all the positive things that happen.

The Catholic church was sued. Some (not enough) of the abusers were punished. Huge awards were given out in civil court. No children resided in the church to be removed. It's not analagous.

These children were removed for their own safety. 

Your version of changing the terms of the debate results only in an apologia for perpetrators of dreadful crimes against innocents.  

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 7:01:14 AM
 

Speaking of which...

This reminds me of the Elian Gonzalez incident several years back.... While I was excited to see Pres. Clinton stand up the the right-wing Cuban thugs in Miami, the jackbooted way he went about it, was awful... I still remember seeing that scary photo of Elian cowering in fear as the cop with the big gun busted in....

Similar with "hate crime" legislation.... Now it is being used against protesters for "hate crimes against capitalism"! Ughhh!

Seeking justice in the context of an unjust governement is certainly tricky.

by Hans Bennett (19 articles, 59 quicklinks, 62 diaries, 104 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 4:24:38 AM
 

Removal of the cihldren was entirely justified

Comparisons between this action and others is invalid.

This is a cult that sanctions INCEST.  When you sanction and engage in that action, you cause PHYSICAL HARM to children, in addition to the mental and emotional abuse.  The children were removed from abusive parents and an abusive cult.  

Here are the facts:

1. Warren Jeffs is the "prophet" for those in the cult. He's been replaced technically but he set the standards and behaviors (see below).

2. Jeffs was been convicted of "two charges of rape as an accomplice " "The rape charges were based on a marriage Jeffs conducted in 2001 between Elissa X, then 14, and Allen Y, her 19-year-old cousin. "

3. Cousins marrying - verified in FLDS population. An extremely rare congenital condition, Fumarase Deficiency has been found at alarming levels in the FDLS community, so alarming that they asked a scientist to do a workshop for them. They asked how to stop it's spread in their community. The suggestion, stop letting cousins marry, was rejected.

"Until 1990 Tarby says he knew of only 13 cases of Fumarase Deficiency worldwide. Since, it has taken hold in the FLDS community because of intermarriage."

"The birth defect (Fumarase Deficiency Syndrome) has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist, now retired but formerly with the Children's Rehabilitative Services in Phoenix."

"The FLDS community, by and large, rejects the idea that Fumarase Deficiency is caused by genes, according to Tarby. "They have their mythology about the condition. They think it's something in the water, or something in the air," he says. Before Tarby retired in 2007, FLDS leaders invited him to address the community about the disorder and how to prevent it. He told them that prevention would involve barring marriages between people with the recessive gene, or asking those couples to forgo children. He suggested that families discontinue having children once the disorder presents itself, or test for the gene during pregnancy and selectively abort pregnancies with the deficiency. All were approaches rejected by the FLDS. "It's not something they are willing to do," Tarby says." Time

4. Outcomes for the cihldren. Fumarase deficiency found in first cousins: "They presented with progressive encephalopathy, dystonia, leucopenia, and neutropenia." Journal of Clinical Investigation

progressive encephalopathy - 1. slow - developmental abnormalities, delay in acquisition of language and motor milestones, cognitive affection, motor affection. (Development continues at a very slow rate leading to impairment. DQ and IQ ranged from low average to borderline to retarded range but relatively stable over time. 2. developmental abnormalities, delay in acquisition of language and motor milestones, cognitive affection, motor affection. (Development continues at a very slow rate leading to impairment. DQ and IQ ranged from low average to borderline to retarded range but relatively stable over time.

dystonia - The dystonias are movement disorders in which sustained muscle contractions cause twisting and repetitive movements or abnormal postures. The movements, which are involuntary and sometimes painful, may affect a single muscle; a group of muscles such as those in the arms, legs, or neck; or the entire body. Those with dystonia usually have normal intelligence and no associated psychiatric disorders. Link

This is  not rocket science.  There's more than enough evidence that deviant sexual practices, including allowing first cousins to marry (aka "incest"), is one of the practices that more than justify the removal of these children for their own safety.

Justices voting for this are accessories before and after the fact for every single act of abuse and suffering experienced by these children if and when they're returned.

Also see:  Texas Supreme Court Challenges Incest Taboo

It is a monstrous practices of parents wedding to create genetically compromised children who will suffer interminably.  And all the while, the female  children are married off as teens to 50 year olds to produce more such children. 

There is no defense for this.  It's child abuse of the worst kind.  

There's no civil or ocnstitutional liberty lost here, just human pain and suffering.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 6:34:55 AM
 

Hogwash.

This cult was led by a sexual deviant and the kids were abused in every way possible. Child rape, arranged marraiges, physical abuse. Incest.

Parents playing in this sick man's game should lose their rights.

This is a human rights issue, not parental or state's rights.

It's very disturbing that there are so many willing to defend this practice which is a business led by men who subjugate women and children.

by Kathlyn Stone (42 articles, 220 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 638 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 8:04:16 AM
 

Religious Persecution in the Name of "Protecting Children"

This is a case of monstrous governmental overreach.  It started with an illegal search and ended with the kidnapping of some 450 children. Happily, it did not end like the MOVE or Waco raids ended, but it could have.  (I am just waiting to hear that one of those children was abused while in foster care.) 

This case offered something for everybody:  After all, "those FLDS people": 

--  Live in a commune – you know what kind of people do that (communists and hippies);

--  Have their own non-sanctioned religious beliefs and practices;

--  Look and act different – with weird hairdos and long dresses, like the Amish;

--  Shun TV and radio, and home-school their children;

--  Have multiple wives; and, since some of those wives are under 18,

--  They may have sex with underage girls. 

Who in his right mind could possibly question a raid against people like that? 

Yet, as with so many government initiatives these days, we see what its true purpose is by watching what the government denies it is.  In the end, this was little more than a large-scale religious persecution carried out under the guise of "protecting the children." 

No one questioned the legality of the search and seizure because anyone who even asked questions risked being labeled a sympathizer with child molesters and perverts.  It's interesting to see how almost everyone who even now dares to comment on this event offers a disclaimer: "I think sexual and child abuse are wrong, but ..." 

But a defense of religious freedom and due process is not ipso facto an endorsement of child molestation.  What kind of reasoning is that? 

Due process needs no defense; it is (or was) one of the cornerstones of the Constitution.  Child molestation has no defense; notwithstanding any laws, abusing a child is inexcusable and wrong by any reasonable moral standard. 

But even as I say that, I have to think about how that standard of morality has evolved over the part century.  My paternal grandmother (born 1884) had her first child at age 16; her husband was 24.  Was she abused?  Or has our standard of what constitutes abuse changed over the years? 

Our standard of what constitutes Fourth Amendment protections has certainly evolved.  Now, probable cause can be established with an anonymous phone call and the seizure of hundreds of children can be justified by the desire to "protect" unnamed children from unspecified dangers.  Isn't that why our Revolutionary forefathers objected to "Writs of Assistance"?

Our standard of religious freedom is evolving backward, too.  Recent presidential races have turned on which candidate can out-holy the others; and current candidates' fortunes rise and fall with the utterances of their pastors.  The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion; pretty soon, we'll need an amendment guaranteeing freedom from religion, too.  Otherwise, we'll be back to hanging witches again (a practice with which we in New England have had some experience).

The Texas Supreme Court was right in overturning the lower courts on this matter.  Better late than never. 

by Richard Wise (23 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 52 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 8:54:09 AM
 

I suppose you think that Aztecs would bepersecuted too

Your anti government position blinds your ability to simply reason this out.  Read my post on the impact of incest.  It's a physical danger to the children, the criterion that the Court used to restore them - they were not at risk.  Just read it and then consider the rationalization of torture, literally, on the developmental level, for their entire lives, that this cult perpetrtes.

The Texas Supreme court is a total disgrace.  They negated the values of a decent community, which includes the values of freedom of religion.

Would it be an intrusion to invade a "neo Aztec" coimpound to stop human sacrifices?  The outcomes for these children are human sacrifices, caused by the practice of plural inbreeding and enabled by the misguided notions of religious freedom which really masks organized sadism.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 1:20:32 PM
 

Mike, this is enlightening, in a depressing sort of way.

Too many people seem strangely adamant about protecting the rights of pedophiles over innocent children. They grandstand that it's ok for children to be forced to have sex with dirty old men who might be their fathers, brothers, uncles or grandfathers and to bear their children. Like the poster above suggesting: "Who are we to judge someone else's 'religious' beliefs?"

That makes for a very morally sick society without any compassion or thought for the powerless. It looks like acceptance of a religious fundamentalist culture that allows the most vile acts to be condoned if only you say "God told me to do it."

People seem to forget that Child Protection Services stepped in because a child called to the authorities for help. She did not want to be forced to have sex or marry one of the pedophiles. Why don't people see that these children are being raised as sexual chattle?

Parents did not protect them before. Why should they be trusted to protect them now?

by Kathlyn Stone (42 articles, 220 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 638 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 1:53:00 PM
 

There are a lot of "protectionists" including Mumia

It's tortured logic allowing torture of children.

Note how no one bothered to respond to my reply on genetics and FLDS. That's a no brainer to understand. It also damns the cult for deliberate ignorance and consequent harm.

I don't know, though, you and I might be cast out into the cold night if a neo Aztec cult starts up and we favor a raid on their temple to stop human sacrifice. It's not murder if a cult does it I guess, "some say."  Or it's allowed if the government intervenes to stop innocents from being victimized.

N.B. The reason the Aztecs fell so quickly is that nearly every other tribe hated them for their cruelty and sided with the Spanish. Sort of thing comes home eventually.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 7:03:54 PM
 

speaking too soon.

Note how no one bothered to respond to my reply on genetics and FLDS. That's a no brainer to understand. It also damns the cult for deliberate ignorance and consequent harm.

Note how you mention that without knowing who would read this, and who would comment upon it. Patience is a virtue.

Yes, isn't it amazing how religious leaders can rewrite reality to suit their needs, and no one questions it? Koresh did it by rewriting the bible and having a human barbecue in Waco. Texas is the home of barbecue, doncha know?! Jim Jones did it.

A genetic disease caused by something in the air. Isn't that like saying that intelligent design is reality and global warming is a myth? Isn't that like saying god hates fags just because some twisted closet-case preachers hate the fact that they want to taste a cock with everything they have in them?

Are we noticing a pattern here? 

The existence of the disease is damning to the FLDS, but it doesn't protect the kids. Now, they are back where they can be raped, sodomized, beaten, and goddess knows what else. We've really gone out of our way to help our fellow man. woo.

Kids. Isn't it interesting how they are good for putting forth a political point, yet can be thrown back to the wolves uncaringly, even after evidence of all the abuses (incest, sodomy, underage pregnancy, and homosexual rape of boys) comes to light. Who is served best here? The kids, or the liars who use them as cheap props to make useless, bullshit points?

IMHO, Every kid that is genetically links an underage girl and her adult "husband" is evidence of statutory rape. The evidence is there! Stop the madness!

To put the kids back into that environment just invites the next Waco style standoff, and isn't it curious that once again, the battleground for this bullshit is here in Texas.

Whoopie!

This is not about states rights, this is about human rights. Anyone who says otherwise has a heart of stone, and deserves the kind of punishment and brutality meted out to those underage brides by their sexually incompitent "husbands".

Blessed be!
Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments) on Tuesday, June 3, 2008 at 12:02:36 AM
 

Go Government!

Everyone knows that the government knows best.

All these people that are speaking out on the governments behalf were raised in government controlled homes and trained in government schools.

The government homes attract pedophiles just like the catholic church, but it is OK, because those pedophiles are with the government.

Taking of children from their parents is also a great source of income for the kiddy mills. I’ve seen them here in Georgia. The children can be raised in a puppy farm type environment. Just put them in a cage and hose’m down after you feed them. Just try to get back a child from one of those kiddy mills and the owners go nuts because you are taking food off their table.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 608 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 5:19:03 PM
 

Let's Not Confuse the Issues

In my previous comment, I tried (obviously witho