This issue has been a question for both McCain and Obama since at least last February. The only difference is that the press only covered the issue as to McCain. Obama has been given a complete pass on this issue until now. Go back to February and you will find a complete article on the issue as it applies to McCain. Any mention of Obama even though he was being asked the same question? In response McCain produced all of his records to the Senate and asked them to rule on whether he was a "natural born citizen" eligible to hold the office of the President. Here was the result: http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-sr511/text

Note that Mr. Obama was present. He could have stood up and said I to have been asked this question. As a Constitutional attorney I realize the importance of having this question answered fully and transparently before the election to avoid voter fraud and to prevent an ineligible candidate from being elected. So here are all of my birth records, school records, passport records and all of the documentation you will need to make this determination."

No, instead Obama produces a worthless document to such places as factcheck and other sites who dutifully say they have examined it and it is real, blah blah. The problem is that it is a CERTIFICATION OF LIVE BIRTH,  and it is not a Certificate of Live Birth or a Birth Certificate. Here is what Hawaiian law has to say about the difference: http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl

"

In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."

The document produced by Obama does not prove that he was born in Hawaii, and it is not even good enough to get a passport. So, the issue of whether it is a forgery is a red herring. The truth is it does not prove that Obama was born in Hawaii. Keep in mind that Obama's half sister was born in Indonesia. Her parents flew back to Hawaii and registered her just like Obama. Her Certification of Live Birth would look almost identical to Obama's. Does it prove that Obama's sister was born in Hawaii. No and that is why the Certification of Live Birth is not good for determining if Obama meets the "natural born" status.

If Obama was born in Kenya, Cuba, Vancouver BC, or the high seas as many are speculating whether he is a "natural born citizen" is questionable. At the time of his birth Obama's mother would have need to have lived in the US for four years prior to her 18th birthday. She was several months short of that.

Under the laws of Hawaii Obama is required to sign a release and pay $12.00 to produce a Certificate of Live Birth or a Birth Certificate. To date he has refused to do so.

There are now 17 lawsuits filed around the country seeking this information. Three of these cases have been taken to the Supreme Court. Most of these cases have been dismissed on the legal technical grounds that a citizen does not have standing to ask a candidate this question. In the Berg case Obama and the DNC showed up with three law firms and had the cased dismissed on that technicality. Obama spent over $500,000.00 in legal fees instead of paying $12.00 and producing his birth certificate.

A law suit was recently filed by Alan Keyes in Sacramento Superior Court. As Mr. Keyes was on the ballot in California he has standing to raise this challenge, he has standing. Mr. Keyes has names Obama, Biden, Debra Bowen the California Secretary of State and the 55 California Democratic electors to either provide the evidence to show Obama is an "natural born citizen" and eligible to hold the office of the President, or they be ordered not to cast their votes for Obama.

I understand that there are members of the Electoral College that are now raising similar challenges to require that Obama produce his records before the Electoral College votes on Dec. 15.

This entire issue remains driven by Obama's persistent refusal to pay $12.00 and produce a copy of his Certificate of Live Birth or his Birth Certificate. Obama seems prepared to drive this country into a Constitutional and national crisis over his personal interests rather than to produce a $12.00 birth certificate.

Obama is on the record as stating he was born in a hospital in Hawaii. Once his birth certificate is produced and if it confirms that there should not be a problem. If, on the other hand it says he was born in another country, or at home or anywhere else but a hospital in Hawaii it will raise serious questions about his veracity and ethics.

 As this has not been answered there are now those that say Obama lost his citizenship when his family moved to Indonesia. How did he fly to Pakistan in 1981 when a US citizen could not enter Pakistan with a US passport. It is alleged Obama applied to college as an Indonesian citizen.

Obama and his legal team have sealed all of his records. The State of Hawaii has sealed his birth certificate according to Hawaiian law and it can only be release by Obama signing a release and paying $12.00.

Obama appears ready to drive this country into a Constitutional crisis over a $12.00 birth certificate. That does not make sense.

by Patriot4u (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 at 5:39:40 PM

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If Obama wanted to by pass this possible crisis he should had released these documents back when the court(s) first presenting legal notices to him “Obama” to produce these. He has repetitively disregarded all legal attempts to show if he is of legal statue of holding the highest seat of this country. The disrespect for not only those who voted for him but also for this country’s U.S. Constitution should not go without resolve.

If in fact that Obama does not have anything to hide then releasing the proper documents should be the easy thing that Obama will ever need to do as to his first priority in becoming The President of the United States of America.

by Old Ga. Dawg (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 3 comments) on Saturday, Nov 29, 2008 at 8:08:07 PM

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Obama propaganda machine intentionally tries to confuse the American people with Obama's "birth certificates". Let the professional investigators handle it as explained below.

Remind your US presidential electors of their constitutional duty to investigate Obama's natural-born US citizenship before it is too late and the economic crisis becomes the least of your problems!

No FBI, no Secret Service, no Hawaii beaurocrats have ever investigated Obama's birth in Hawaii. Many illegal aliens in USA have official "birth certificates" issued by state beaurocrats on the basis of falsified birth records. Obama has spent over $800,000 in legal costs to avoid presenting a $10 copy of his original falsified birth certificate on the grounds that nobody has a legal standing to see it.

You will find out later why Fox News, Limbaugh, or Bush administration are silent on this issue. Now it is the time to remind your US presidential electors that they have the legal standing and constitutional duty to investigate Obama's birth in Hawaii.

To find the names of US presidential electors use the partial list at wikipedia below. Or use www.google.com, click News on top, then in the Search News enter the name of your state and the words: presidential electors. Or contact your US Senators, US House Rep, your state senators/reps, etc.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81550

http://en.wikipedia.org and in its search box type: List of United States presidential electors, 2008

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/index.html

by David Vrouger (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:53:14 AM

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Does this devious little issue have legs?  If so, should we be pondering a  change to the constitution, ala Arnold fans? 

by Margaret Bassett (45 articles, 2909 quicklinks, 42 diaries, 1851 comments [99 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 10:50:14 AM

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I am open to a new interpretation or constitutional amendment on the natural-born citizen clause of the constitution regarding a person's eligibility for the office of the President of the United States of America.

 However, I would be strongly opposed to anyone benefitting from it immediately. Such decisions must not be made to meet the matter at hand.

 This said, I'd like to give you a couple of links to relevant discussion:

1.  A law professor's paper arguing that the natural-born citizen clause should be scrapped or more broadly applied.

http://lawreview.kentlaw.edu/articles/81-1/Herlihy.pdf

 2. Some reaction to the above in a website / blog:

click here

by willmay (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:39:05 AM

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Right wingers and unrepentant hillarymaniacs who voted for McCain-- you know the PUMAs-- need something to fantasize about. So, this pathetic bunch of losers wastes their time imagining Obama being screwed by the cretins that the Bushes put in the supreme court.

by Rob Kall (952 articles, 4177 quicklinks, 374 diaries, 2087 comments [45 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 6:11:51 PM

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Pretty much, yeah. 

by politivegan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 13 comments) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:51:12 PM

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... to change the requirements for the presidency, and that won't happen any time soon (although Arnold Schwarzenegger would love it).

This is desperation on the part of Republicans, who only care about the constitution when it suits their immediate political needs.

If they didn't go nuts about Obama's birth certificate, they would make up something else just as ridiculous (Filegate, Travelgate, FBIgate, Whitewater, etc, etc).

This from the same type of people who out covert CIA agents for political points and then use the excuse “well, they weren’t much of a CIA agent”.

Pathetic.

by John R Moffett (89 articles, 18 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 697 comments [14 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 11:48:23 AM

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...months ago.

Since we first wrote about Obama's birth certificate on June 16, speculation on his citizenship has continued apace. Some claim that Obama posted a fake birth certificate to his Web page. That charge leaped from the blogosphere to the mainstream media earlier this week when Jerome Corsi, author of a book attacking Obama, repeated the claim in an Aug. 15 interview with Steve Doocy on Fox News.

Corsi: Well, what would be really helpful is if Senator Obama would release primary documents like his birth certificate. The campaign has a false, fake birth certificate posted on their website. How is anybody supposed to really piece together his life?

Doocy: What do you mean they have a "false birth certificate" on their Web site?

Corsi: The original birth certificate of Obama has never been released, and the campaign refuses to release it.

Doocy: Well, couldn't it just be a State of Hawaii-produced duplicate?

Corsi: No, it's a -- there's been good analysis of it on the Internet, and it's been shown to have watermarks from Photoshop. It's a fake document that's on the Web site right now, and the original birth certificate the campaign refuses to produce.

Corsi isn't the only skeptic claiming that the document is a forgery. Among the most frequent objections we saw on forums, blogs and e-mails are:

• The birth certificate doesn't have a raised seal.
• It isn't signed.
• No creases from folding are evident in the scanned version.
  
• In the zoomed-in view, there's a strange halo around the letters.
• The certificate number is blacked out.
• The date bleeding through from the back seems to say "2007," but the document wasn't released until 2008.
• The document is a "certification of birth," not a "certificate of birth."
  

Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it's stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.

The Obama birth certificate, held by FactCheck writer Joe Miller

Alvin T. Onaka's signature stamp

The raised seal

Blowup of text

You can click on the photos to get full-size versions, which haven't been edited in any way, except that some have been rotated 90 degrees for viewing purposes.

The certificate has all the elements the State Department requires for proving citizenship to obtain a U.S. passport: "your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records." The names, date and place of birth, and filing date are all evident on the scanned version, and you can see the seal above.

The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.

The scan released by the campaign shows halos around the black text, making it look (to some) as though the text might have been pasted on top of an image of security paper. But the document itself has no such halos, nor do the close-up photos we took of it. We conclude that the halo seen in the image produced by the campaign is a digital artifact from the scanning process.

We asked the Obama campaign about the date stamp and the blacked-out certificate number. The certificate is stamped June 2007, because that's when Hawaii officials produced it for the campaign, which requested that document and "all the records we could get our hands on" according to spokesperson Shauna Daly. The campaign didn't release its copy until 2008, after speculation began to appear on the Internet questioning Obama's citizenship. The campaign then rushed to release the document, and the rush is responsible for the blacked-out certificate number. Says Shauna: "[We] couldn't get someone on the phone in Hawaii to tell us whether the number represented some secret information, and we erred on the side of blacking it out. Since then we've found out it's pretty irrelevant for the outside world." The document we looked at did have a certificate number; it is 151 1961 - 010641.

Blowup of certificate number

Some of the conspiracy theories that have circulated about Obama are quite imaginative. One conservative blogger suggested that the campaign might have obtained a valid Hawaii birth certificate, soaked it in solvent, then reprinted it with Obama's information. Of course, this anonymous blogger didn't have access to the actual document and presents this as just one possible "scenario" without any evidence that such a thing actually happened or is even feasible.

We also note that so far none of those questioning the authenticity of the document have produced a shred of evidence that the information on it is incorrect. Instead, some speculate that somehow, maybe, he was born in another country and doesn't meet the Constitution's requirement that the president be a "natural-born citizen."

We think our colleagues at PolitiFact.com, who also dug into some of these loopy theories put it pretty well: "It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible. But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over."

In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961:

Obama's birth announcement

The announcement was posted by a pro-Hillary Clinton blogger who grudgingly concluded that Obama "likely" was born Aug. 4, 1961 in Honolulu.

Of course, it's distantly possible that Obama's grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. We suggest that those who choose to go down that path should first equip themselves with a high-quality tinfoil hat. The evidence is clear: Barack Obama was born in the U.S.A.

Update, August 26: We received responses to some of our questions from the Hawaii Department of Health. They couldn't tell us anything about their security paper, but they did answer another frequently-raised question: why is Obama's father's race listed as "African"? Kurt Tsue at the DOH told us that father's race and mother's race are supplied by the parents, and that "we accept what the parents self identify themselves to be." We consider it reasonable to believe that Barack Obama, Sr., would have thought of and reported himself as "African." It's certainly not the slam dunk some readers have made it out to be.

When we asked about the security borders, which look different from some other examples of Hawaii certifications of live birth, Kurt said "The borders are generated each time a certified copy is printed. A citation located on the bottom left hand corner of the certificate indicates which date the form was revised." He also confirmed that the information in the short form birth certificate is sufficient to prove citizenship for "all reasonable purposes."

–by Jess Henig, with Joe Miller

by Sheila Samples (54 articles, 6167 quicklinks, 44 diaries, 597 comments [28 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:09:40 PM

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therefore, most, if not all, of what you posted is offbase, irrelevant and/or wishful thinking.  if hawaii has sealed obama's records, that means factcheck.org nor anybody else has viewed them in order to come away saying "we've seen them, and they're legit."  also, a "certificate of live birth" is not the same as an "original birth certificate".  so what factcheck.org has is not the original birth certificate and even if it was, have you ever asked yourself why obama is listed as an "african" on it instead of an "american" or "negro" as he would have been identified back then?

 if that doc is supposed to prove that he was born an american citizen, why is he labeled an "african" on it?  LOL

 this is truly a "hot mess."

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:19:01 PM

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Obama's father was Kenyan so of course the father will select "African" for Obama's heritage. A Kenyan father would NEVER select negro on the birth certificate. WOW you republicans really are grasping for straws now.

My parents could have selected European decent or Scandanavian on my birth certificate if they really wanted to. It makes no difference what you select as your heritage when you are born in the U.S.

Adeeba, would you select "Negro" for your kids?

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:37:23 PM

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Sheila addressed all the issues and your reply to her is the classic "head buried in the sand" reply when faced with facts that debunk your conspiracy.

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:47:03 PM

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Just the Facts

Here is a link to an official press release by the Director of Health for the STATE of Hawai'i, with the support of the Registrar of Vital Statistics:

http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

There is a phone # provided at the bottom of the document for anyone who has any further questions to call.

It should be noted also that the only way anyone would be authorized to receive daily updates on matters of national security and the latest information from the CIA, NSA, FBI - not to mention receiving the protection from the Secret Service - ALL BACKGROUND CHECKS - criminal, medical, work history, credit history, etc. - are done. If the man isn't an American citizen after all that is done, then basically, the entire US Government is a fraud, willingly participating in the BIGGEST conspiracy EVER!

If you refuse to believe public officials who are acting with authority as authorized to do so by the State and Federal government, then I don't know what else I can say, other then recommending a good psychiatrist.

by Mary Davis (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 5 comments) on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 at 7:23:16 PM

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i'm just curious what it is that you thought you were proving.  the news release simply states that only obama can request his birth certificate and that this state official has "personally seen and verified" that his "original birth certificate" is on record.  so what.  that still doesn't answer as to why obama hasn't requested a copy of that original certificate and made it plain as john mccain did.

also, the hawaii official saying they have verified obama's original birth certificate is not equivalent to them saying the original birth certificate states he was born in hawaii.  if it does say that, then why didn't the official go as far as to say he is verifying obama's hawaiian birth?

 anyway, it's clear this issue - if not resolved before the inauguration - is going to follow obama around during his entire time in the white house, if it is not used to attempt to impeach him should it eventually come out that he is not, in fact, a "natural born citizen" according to the constitution.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:18:26 PM

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In Shelia's post:

"The scan released by the campaign shows halos around the black text, making it look (to some) as though the text might have been pasted on top of an image of security paper. But the document itself has no such halos, nor do the close-up photos we took of it. We conclude that the halo seen in the image produced by the campaign is a digital artifact from the scanning process."

The halo that all the Republican "Tin-foil hat" conspiracists claim is proof that the birth certificate is fact is in fact nothing more than a common graphics artifact when converting an image into a compressed format for viewing on the web. The above explanation is partly right in that it is a digital artifact but not necessarily from the scanning process. You can scan a document as a TIF image and not seen the halo effect.

But most people convert images into JPEG format because the file size is very small and it allows the image to be quickly and easily viewed in a web browser. JPEG uses lossy compression, and the level of compression is under the operator’s control. Care must be taken not to compress graphics excessively or details will be lost and artifacts will occur. Most web developers use pre-set default formats on Photoshop that will convert and image into an optimized web-enabled image. As compression goes above 35% the halo effect becomes more apparent. This is a standard artifact in producing web-ready images that any reasonably intelligent graphics artist can attest is quite normal. Unfortunately the conspiracy theorist put on their tin-foil hats before doing any simple due diligence.

The only way you can truly view a digital reproduction of a document would be in the TIF format and the file size would be 10's of Megabytes. It is not uncommon for the JPEG format to compress this file to 1/100th the size so that it can quickly be loaded into a web browser. And once a file is compressed to this extent obviously 99% of its pixels have been lost and cannot be recovered simply by zooming in on the image. You need the original scanned image that has not yet been compressed for viewing on the web.

The below link shows a very good pictorial description of this effect common with the encoding of images in the JPEG format and clearly shows the appearance of the halo affect as the filesize goes down (becomes more compressed).

http://www.health.gov.mt/impaedcard/issue/issue5/1118/1118.htm

Again don't let facts get in the way of telling a good "evil liberals" bedtime story.

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 6:24:49 PM

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If Mr. Obama does not meet eligibility, either by the "natural born" clause of the constitution, or by other legal standards (such as dual citizenship, renounced citizenship, or such), then I'm afraid he must not assume the office of the presidency.  I don't want this to be the outcome, but I see no alternative.

We must all respect the laws of the land and our constitution must be upheld. If we start letting this clause or that clause of it be disregarded, brushed off, or reinterpreted to fit the situation at hand, then we risk the constitution being picked away until it no matters; and that's a dangerous place to be.

I would like to see Mr. Obama assume the presidency. I didn't vote for him (nor McCain; I voted for an independent). I don't particular like his views on government and governing. However, the majority, for whatever reason, did vote for him.  And his election I think has and will do some good for American society.  Still,  . . any benefit his being president may bring, it can never be justified by allowing him or anyone else to disregard our constitution and our laws.

I have pondered the possibility of Congress acting somehow to declare Mr. Obama an acceptable, eligible person,  - - if that's even possible, legally, legislatively, constitutionally  - - - should it turn out Mr. Obama does indeed have issues that would make him ineligible.  However, my pondering has led to this conclusion:  We should not be making exceptions for the immediate need.  Such exceptions or any kind of changes to the eligibility standards must not benefit anyone who stands to gain immediately from the changes. This is a common tenet of law.  (To wit: Hillary Clinton, from my understanding, is going to have to accept a lower salary as Secretary of State because she was in the Senate last year when a higher salary for the position was voted on. She is not allowed to benefit from that vote.)

I understand how upsetting it would be to the African-American community in this country should Mr. Obama turn out to be ineligible to assume the presidency (or, later is determined ineligible and must leave office).  If it is at all possible, I would like to see another African-American replace Mr. Obama as the Democrat's presidential leader should Mr. Obama not be eligible.  (How about Michelle Obama? I'd be "cool with that".)

by willmay (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 12:56:24 PM

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Doctor, Before spouting off the mouth about repubs you might want to check the fact that most of the lawsiuts regarding Obama's citizenship were filed by democRATS and the AIP.

by Nurse76 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:12:38 PM

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Frivolous lawsuits filed by disgruntled Hillary Clinton supporters is hardly considered evidence. Anyone with a few bucks in their pocket can file a civil lawsuit. Plus you are incorrect in that the majority of these lawsuits come from Hillary Clinton supporters. The majority come from Republicans.

But since when do Republicans let facts get in the way of telling a good Republican bedtime story.

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:55:00 PM

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that after the 28 years since the election of the not-so-great Reagan, and the misery this country has endured under Republican poilcy, that the wing-nuts would have finally exhausted their supply of vitriol and stupidity. Apparently not. The only person who posted anything to this thread that had any substance was Sheila Samples. The rest of you disgruntled rethugs and hillary supporters, unable to accept that your bankrupt ideology was refuted by the electorate (unfortunately, not neccessarily by Obama), have seized on anything that might muddy the water around Obama. Where were all of you high-minded constitutional scholars when the rethugs stole two national elections, passed the Patriot Act suspending habeus corpus, and took the country to war on the shakiest of excuses? I guess you were blogging on the National Review about how great George the Younger was, and how the country was being destroyed by sissy liberals.

by Wayne Turner (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 53 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:50:45 PM

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@  "The only person who posted anything to this thread that had any substance was Sheila Samples. The rest of you disgruntled rethugs and hillary supporters, unable to accept that your bankrupt ideology was refuted by the electorate (unfortunately, not neccessarily by Obama), have seized on anything that might muddy the water around Obama."

not everyone who sees something strange about this situation is a republican or a hillary supporter nor are their comments on this substanceless.  if you find such substance in what sheila posted, please answer the question as to why the certificate of live birth lists obama as an "african" instead of an american negro. please give a response of substance and not one full of name calling, empty rhetoric and il-logic.

 thanks.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 7:02:35 PM

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I said:

"Obama's father was Kenyan so of course the father will select "African" for Obama's heritage. A Kenyan father would NEVER select negro on the birth certificate. WOW you republicans really are grasping for straws now.

My parents could have selected European decent or Scandanavian on my birth certificate if they really wanted to. It makes no difference what you select as your heritage when you are born in the U.S."

So again Adeeba I ask you, would you select "Negro" for your kids?

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 7:35:48 PM

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i didn't see your earlier reply to me but i'm sure it's an ego boost to think i was shivering in my boots about responding. LOL

as far as the birth document, i have to correct myself after looking at it again.  it does not list obama as african but it does list his father's race as african.  so, that should be enough to respond to your post, other than to say that i'm not a republican so your ASSuming that i am is an exercise in delusion and the type of rationale held by some/many who seem unable to see that something strange is going on with this whole thing.

you were correct in saying that i hadn't read what sheila posted because i didn't.  i only skimmed it.  it proves nothing to me and does nothing to address that a copy of one's birth certificate should contain the same info that's on the original.  IMO, there's no reason that the time of birth would be listed on the copy but not the hospital and delivery doctor's name.  that info is on one's original birth certificate but for some reason it's not on obama's copy.

can you or sheila explain why?  i mean, you all may know much better than the rest of us.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 8:06:13 PM

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The document in question lists the father as African not the child.

by Michael Weber (16 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 55 comments [17 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:43:36 PM

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i don't know if you were posting to me or not but i already corrected myself and said the certificate lists obama's father as "african," NOT obama.  hopefully everyone is taking note that my erroneous statement has been corrected.

if you were posting in response to someone else's comments, i can't speak for them.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:56:11 AM

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It is very important to understand the difference between a “Certification of live Birth” and a “Certificate of Live Birth”.  The link below shows the Obama submission (Certification of live Birth) on the left and the “Certificate of Live Birth” for a real Hawaiian citizen from the same generation on the right.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iKcZ3qcCmyo/SSrfxldwhuI/AAAAAAAALMQ/ga339VEByNs/s1600-h/2BObirth.jpg

In the formal statement by the Hawaiain Department of health, Dr. Fukino was very specific when she said to have seen a birth certificate; there was no mention as to the nationality of the birth certificate or any inference that it was Hawaiian. Follow the link below to read the official statement.

http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf

In addition, at the time in question, Hawaii allowed persons born out of the country to be registered; very similar to what is available today.

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol06_ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.HTM

Finally, Obama has spent much money (estimates of >$500,000) for lawyers, websites, and the like to hide something that $12 would release; is this the way he is going to spend your money?

by JustShowIt (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:33:42 PM

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The fact is that NOBODY can obtain their "original birth certificate".  This is an official State document, the original of which must remain in the custody of the State Department of Vital Statistics where COPIES may be obtained upon meeting certain requirements.  This is a desperate effort by malcontents to overturn an election of which they do not approve.

by Mary Pitt (77 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 282 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 5:45:06 PM

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While it is true that one can only obtain a 'copy'; not the original certificate of birth, an official copy comes with official signatures and seals.

In any case, what is being argued here is that this document, official or not, is not a Hawaiian "certificate" of birth, but a "certification" of birth; which is a different document; and apparently one that can be used to record births of children to people whose *normal residence* is Hawaii even if they are not actual 'citizens' of the US or even if the birth doesn't physically occur in Hawaii itself.

And apparently even the Hawaiian department that issues driver's licenses, while accepting this document for identification purposes, *STILL* verifies it against the corresponding Hawaiian "certificate" before processing the license application.

So, if it's not, by itself, enough to allow one to get a mere driver's license in the state of it's own origin; it's hard to see why the American people should accept it as enough verification in fulfilling the legal requirements to become President of our country.

As has been noted elsewhere, it's not uncommon for one to have to show an official copy of one's birth certificate for lots of things. So while it isn't exactly normally 'public'; it's also not exactly private either. One would have thought that, for any person seeking a public office that has a citizenship requirement, a publically filed copy of one's official birth documents would be *mandatory* BEFORE actually campaigning, much less taking office.

I can sympathise with one desiring privacy. Most folks do, and can, as well. But when one runs for public office, some of the privacy one would otherwise have as a 'private citizen' is no longer there, or even expected.

One last thought: As others have noted, this *is* a serious issue. Either the Constitution creates and controls the offices of government, or else it does not. It's not a 'pick and choose' type of document. Most public officials, and all officers in the armed forces, swear to uphold, defend, and protect the Constitution of the United States as part of their oaths of office. The folks in those positions *OWE* it to the rest of us to answer any questions or satisfy any doubts as to whether they meet the legal requirements of the positions they seek. That can be done here for a $12 fee; plus postage/shipping; and providing the document to a public forum for verification. Spending thousands of dollars *NOT* to do that merely makes suspicions build. And reasonably so. We don't need or want that.

by Richard Westerveld (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 at 9:14:46 AM

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Apparently Alan Keyes the mental midget that he is forgot to put in his writ a request to have an "expert" verify the birth certificate.

Here is a post by a legal expert today on the case:

"Nonetheless, what Keyes failed to present in the writ is a request to have an "expert" verify the birth certificate. This leaves the judge, if the case isn't summarily dismissed, to rely on the California Secretary of State to assess the birth certificate. Keyes is going to steam when discovering that he is not going to have opportunity to second-guess the California Secretary of State's decision." 

Oooppss, looks like this one will be thrown out / dismissed tomorrow. Oh well it was a nice try while it lasted. 

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Sunday, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:02:46 PM

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would you please post a link to where those who are interested can read this "expert's" full comments.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:58:19 AM

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you know, the same question you asked me earlier.  could be you haven't seen it, although as much as you were responding in here, that's hard to imagine.  anyway, have you found a link or a reference you can give for the "expert" you were quoting?

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Wednesday, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:25:50 AM

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??????

obama's birth certificate is not the only document that is being questioned by those described as "sore losers," "mental masturbaters," "rethugs," "those who need to get a life," etc. according to rense.com, there are a number of other obama documents that have been sealed or are unavailable for review.  they include:

http://www.rense.com/general83/openn.htm

 some speculate that obama may have registered as a foreign student (having had indonesian citizenship since he was a boy). even his campaign website said he had dual citizenship at one time (but they say it was kenyan & US).  his indonesian citizenship may be reflected in some of his college admission records. if so, and if he never renounced that citizenship, a person with dual citizenship would also be ineligible for the office of president.

i surmise that obama will coast through this controversy as he has coasted through everything else that has been thrown his way but that still doesn't take away from the fact that "something stinks" about this whole thing.  it's an orchestrated charade as far as i'm concerned, part of a script written and produced by powers behind the scene who are able to make all these questionable things about obama just disappear into nothingness.  real question is why and what's really going on that masses of people have been so willingly manipulated by this thing, and happy about it too. 

it's really amazing to watch.... and also very interesting that the 30th anniversary of the jim jones massacre, another charismatic, 'christ-like' figure to some, was being spotlighted just days ago.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 3:27:14 AM

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You know the great thing about right-wing loons and neo-nuts is if you keep them talking long enough their true stripes will eventually be revealed and they will say something completely wacko. Like comparing Obama to Jim Jones.

You sound like a disciple of Alan Keyes who compared Obama to Hitler.

Thanks for playing.

Oh and a thing about sealed records ..... it's called privacy laws. In case you need a refresher they are meant to protect the individual that the records relate to. I certainly would not want my records of any sort available to a complete wack-job like you. 

by E. Nelson (40 articles, 8 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 511 comments [57 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 9:04:57 AM

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what i asked you for was a link to the information from the "expert" that you quoted.  that did not require you to post anything other than such link ..... if you even have one.  i don't care what you think about my opinions, just as i really don't care about yours.  now, do you have a link or a reference for the quote that you put up earlier?  if you don't, it would be easier to say that you don't rather than resort to attempts at diversion and subterfuge ....... kind of like the obama camp.  i.e., rather than produce an original birth certificate they go on the attack against those raising questions.

and you have the nerve to call other people "loons" and whatever other names you (and others) have to resort to.  so, once again ...... do you have a link for that "expert's" full statement?

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:29:09 AM

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Guys...you lost.

For Chrissakes, Get over it.

We're Celebrating Your Demise!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WugcAuQMP1s

by Perry Logan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 558 comments [74 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:49:53 AM

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Who is this legal expert that you think has to be stated in the Keyes case? Bowen is going to have to bring to court what she used to qualify Obama for the ballot. Likely it will simply be a letter from the democratic party. Any judge can order an expert be retained to answer a question that requires expert analysis of evidence presented to court. But the question remains, why does Obama still refuse to sign a release and pay $12.00 and produce a copy of his Certificate of Live Birth? He has spent over $500,00,00 in legal fees fighting to keep it protected? The only answer is that he is hiding something.

by Patriot4u (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:12:24 AM

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So if Osama ran instead of Obama and he produced a Certificate of Live Birth you would simply accept the document that on its face does not prove that the person is a natural born citizen? Again, a Certificate of Live Birth is not sufficient to get a passport. All people are asking is for Obama to be open about his past and provide the documents that he meets the Constitutional test. Once again: http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl "In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL." All citizens are asking is for Obama to pay $12.00 and present his birth certificate. And I am sorry, when you run for public office, particularly the President you give up some privacy rights to the extent needed to prove you meet the Constitutional test of a "natural born" citizen.

by Patriot4u (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:19:09 AM

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Sorry meant to say Obama has produced a Certification of Live Birth and not a Certificate of Live Birth. Big difference.

by Patriot4u (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 11:21:55 AM

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I am originally from Connecticut where I was born.  I have requested and received both a certified copy of my birth certificate and certifications of birth.  The certifications were used when I married my late wife in Japan.  Many years later I obtained certified copies of my birth certificate. 

Both type forms are legal documents and are proof of location of birth.

No one can get the "original" birth certificate which is maintained by the Bureau of Vital Statistics in the city of Bridgeport, Connecticut.   

The important thing is the raised seal applied to both types of instruments.   If you make a copy of the copy, the seal will appear "flat" - not raised.

by frank69 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 39 comments) on Monday, Dec 1, 2008 at 7:42:24 PM

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in denver, colorado, a person can get a certified copy of their original birth  certificate for around $18.   the seal would be applied to the copy of the original; the copy being an exact replica of all the information on the original.  given all the questions about obama's birth, it would seem he would be required to present his original certificate (in copied form)  to prove his citizenship.  but of course, that's probably not going to happen.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Tuesday, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:51:26 AM

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Conspiracy theories?   Please remove your heads from your rear waste ejection portals.  Is there any doubt that there are conspiracy theories.  Weapons of Mass Destruction, BBC pre-reporting impossible collapse of WTC7 (+ CNN & Fox), Jessica Lynch, Pat Tillman, Yellow cake Uranium, Federal Prosecutors, Valerie Plame, Karl Rove, Rumsfeld sells the cure for the f*cking bird flu (Billy Joel song?), Bombing the hotel full of journalists in Bagdad, Dyncorp trafficing children for sex, Boys in the whitehouse kitchen after midnight, homosexual escort babe asking questions at the white house press, (have to  stop . . . getting sick).

We didn't start the fire, it was always burning since the world's been turning.

http://www.radiodujour.com

by Edward Rynearson (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 34 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:07:36 AM

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If you guys had  gotten information about another candidate for president out, instead of bickering on-line, maybe this wouldn't be an issue. 

by politivegan (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 13 comments) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 4:15:47 PM

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how mature.

actually, a better statement - IMO - would be, "if obama had of released his ORIGINAL birth certificate (in copy form) months ago, when this all started, this would not be an issue right now.

 some of these comments are laughable because i'd be really surprised if you and others would not be doing and calling for the same things if the tables were turned.  some on the obama bandwagon now spent the last 4-8 years opposing bush, criticizing his every move, questioning this/questioning that but now everything's different with obama.

as someone who didn't support or vote for either one, and really doesn't look at this as a dem vs repub, left vs right issue, i find the double standards from both sides to be asinine and non-productive. but of course, folks on both side don't think that their own you-know-what stinks when it does, equally.

by adeeba folami (9 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Friday, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:31:16 PM

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