Nature versus nurture

I just had 5 pits put down after spending 2 years and about $5000 rescuing them. They were all fixed as soon as I got them.   I heard about starving puppies.  The three of them were about 2-1/2 months old and living under a semi-abandoned trailer.  Nobody had spent any time petting them. They were skin and bones and occasionally shot at by crazy alcoholic neighbors.  I started feeding them while I figured out a solution and tried to get them to accept being petted.  The beautiful white pit mother (Sheba) was hit by a sand truck, drug down asphalt and left for dead about 2 months into this.  I found her two days later and rushed her to the hospital.  They saved her leg and said what a wonderful dog she was and how well behaved.  I drove 140 miles a day every other day for weeks to save her life/leg.  I got a trap from the pound and took the 3 pups home to kennels I had set up for their homecoming.  I also rescued a black collie mix 8-year-old female (Whoopie) and was the one I actually meant to lure home to keep from the beginning.  I had an old pitt (Trilby) already and she had been a pain over the years but was too old to cause any trouble now.   Two of the pups were part wolf (Bob Barker and Acey) and one was part bull dog/border collie (BeeBee.)  I also had a 2 year old at home that I had since 4 weeks old and was pitt and coon hound, Gracie, and also a 12-year-old Staffordshire pitt female (Trilby previously mentioned) and a 10-year-old Malteze mix (Rudy.)  So, the 2 wolf/pitt were in my yard with Whoopie and Trillby and Rudy for about 8 months with Trilby, Rudy and Gracie coming in at night and Acey and Bob staying outside in their dog houses.  Acey and Bob thought of Whoopie as Mom.  One day they attacked  Trilby.  I got there in time and figured she must have started it as she had been a real pain with starting trouble with other dogs her whole life.  But I had her under control and she minded me and never went for the kill just for damage to the other dog.  Then Sheba, Acey, and Bob attacked my Mom's lab mix and Acey went for the kill.  Sheba had started it and Acey wanted to finish it.  We busted it up and saved Joe, Mom's lab.  We then put them in huge expensive kennels inside fencing that was inside fencing.  We had wonderful runs to the lake and they learned to play Frisbee and catch balls and walk on leashes.  All except Bob Barker.  They all loved to howl with the coyotes which I loved but got us thrown out.  I found an expensive house with chain link and put kennels inside fencing, inside fencing.  Bob would not be touched even though he generally did what I wanted.  He would not get in the carrier to be moved and after 3 days of dog tranquilizers he bit me to the bone on my hand and I was afraid worse would happen.  I had to have him put down. The emergency vet put a cover over his kennel and tranqued him out then gave him the shot with his never leaving the carrier, so no fear or pain.   I loved him very much but he was born into the wrong day and age and nurture did not win out over nature.  I went back and finished moving.  Sheba and Acey and Beebee went in the kennels at the new house.  Acey kept getting out and cruising the neighbors 3 acre yards and taking Sheba and Beebee with him.  Sheba before I got her had been encouraged to fight.  She was shocked that it was not acceptable.  I put more boards and wire around their yard.  One morning after I let them out of their room at the back of the house that opened into the back yard, then I lay back down in my bed.  I woke up to Whoopie screaming in pain for help.  Acey had gotten the family out and Sheba and Beebee and Gracie were all killing Whoopie.  In my night shirt, I raced out with a hoe to bust it up.  Acey looked at me and let me know I was next if I messed with him.  He had gone for Whoopie's throat while the others ripped at the rest of her.  Whoopie let me know to get away for my own safety or Acey would kill me too.  Apparently, Acey had tried to kill Trilby and Gracie turned it on Whoopie.  Sheba and Acey did not care what died apparently.  A neighbor man came over outside the fence and made crazy loud noises and as they were already afraid of men, and they ran back to the kennels.  I did my best Dog Whisperer and got those murderous dogs back in their room at the back of the house.  We rushed Whoopie to the vet but her heart stopped when the vet took her away from me as she was afraid of everyone but me.  She was shredded all over and her neck was ripped about in half.  If her heart had not stopped, it would have cost about $10,000 to save her.  They put her in a cardboard casket for me and I took her home.  I unloaded her and loaded up the four pitt mixes who had done the damage and took them to the pound.  All four were put down that afternoon.  I stayed with them and petted them all until they were tranqued out and then the compassionate man at the pound gave them the final shot.  I took Gracie home and buried her with Whoopie.  I let the pound keep Sheba, Acey and Beebee for cremation.  They promised they would stay together.  Gracie a year earlier had tried to bite family who she had actually met before and smelled on my clothes.  Beebee had always started trouble with Whoopie viciously, feeding the kill frenzy that finally happened.  I loved them all, all 6 of them.  I have never been a person to put a pet down.  I let them die in their own time at home while I care for them even with diapers on needing changing.  But Acey would have killed me and the rest would have participated for all I knew.  I am a pacifist.  I never yelled or scared at them because of all they had gone through before I got them, but yet they were willing to kill someone I loved, Whoopie and possibly me.  Gracie had saved someone I loved, Trilby, but tried to bite my family and now she had been in on a kill.  They were going to have a bad future end and I just ended it before worse happened.  The pups had an extra 2 happy years and no fear or pain when it ended.  I asked all the dog people including Dog Whisperer for help over those years but got nothing but sales pitches.  My end conclusion is that every dog deserves a chance even pitts, but that when they show you who they are - believe them.  Take them peacefully to the pound/vet and end it without pain or fear or more damage.  I do not plan to ever get any more dogs when Trilby and Rudy die.  Cats, I like cats.  I do not think all pitts should be killed, but they should not be given free access to other dogs because you really cannot tell when they might bust a move and they can do real damage.  The only dog I ever had that I could be sure would save my life is Trilby and felt Sheba would be that way but not so sure in the end.  Nature versus nurture.  What would Dog Whisperer have done?  I just am not that gifted and he would not help without loads of money that I did not have.  But they had some happy years without fear, pain or hunger in their time on this earth that they would not have otherwise had.  Save them but always remember what they are capable of and don't trust them to care about what you care about.  The wolf part did not help Sam and Acey but Sheba was pure and well ---.   There is so much bad nature bred into them that mandatory fixing is reasonable and no breaders of pitts allowed.  There are too many of them for the breed to die out but pitts need intermixing with nicer breeds.  Being realistic, people who breed them are proud of their viciousness along with their loyalty to their masters.  There are cougars where I live.  Trilby would take on a cougar to save me. She tried to take on a full grown huge long-horn bull one day.  I am glad you saved the pup.  Fix it right away and remember the nature.

by ljs (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 55 comments) on Friday, June 20, 2008 at 3:49:44 PM
 

Nature versus nurture

Ijs - I'm sorry for your unhappy story re your pits and dogs.  I personally feel that they had a bad start in life and even though you did all you could, I also believe that being together was not a good thing.  I think nurture would have won over if each pitt puppy had been placed in a nurturing home away from any bad influences.  No, I'm not a dog whisperer but I do wonder what the real one would have said in regards to your case. 

by Suzana Megles (39 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 163 comments) on Friday, June 20, 2008 at 5:06:11 PM
 

Nature versus nurture

Dear IFS:  I thought you might be interested in a comment my friend Vickie who rehomes dogs sent me in regards to your comment:  I agree, Suzana, that too many dogs of this type was not a good thing.  Any group of dogs has the potential to gang up on one dog--especially if one of the dogs is weaker or sick.  Maybe if these dogs had been house dogs, it may have been different too.  What a story, though.  Very frightening.  I know how frightening it is when there is a fight and the dogs will not be separated. (Have you ever tried hosing them down, Vickie?)

I also remember sadly an incidence that happened in my home.  My beautiful gentle Muffin was diagnosed with a failing liver.  As I worked, she was left home with Angel who I had taken in recently.  This white shepherd mix was not a vicious dog - yet when I came home one evening, I was shocked to see that my dear, dear Muffin had been attacked by Angel.  I took Muffin to the vets and then he told me that sometimes this happens - that a healthy dog will attack a sick one.  I was horrified to find this out though even this may have been nature's way of dealing with sick animals who had no access to medicine.  I don't remember what I did to prevent another such attack, though sadly Muffin's failing health made me decide that I didn't want her to suffer any more and she was put down.

You mentioned preferring cats now.  I like cats and dogs and presently have 1 dog and 5 cats.  All needed homes, so I took them in.  I will always favor dogs though because of my first beautiful puppy Peaches.   Some of the 30 cats I rescued over the years were incredibly beautiful as well though.  I love all animals but have a special affinity with the animals who are grain eaters like the beautiful majectic horses and the cows whose milk I will not taste because of the cruelty associated with dairy farms of the CAFOs (Confined Animal Farm Operations).  I now pay $5 plus for a quart of Soy Ice Cream, but it tastes delicious knowing I am not responsible for any cruelty to the mother cows. 

by Suzana Megles (39 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 163 comments) on Saturday, June 21, 2008 at 9:14:09 AM
 

No options but death or living together with me

These dogs had accumulated around an uncapped well.  There were 5 shepherd mixes plus the dogs I ended up with.  The dog rescue people helped me with the shepherds and they all have loving homes.  They wanted nothing to do with pitts.  The pitt people on the web wanted nothing to do with any more pitts.  Nobody would take any of them.  I/we advertised on bulletin boards and on the web and no one would take any of them.  Believe me, I did not want all these dogs much less pitts, but did not want them dead either and the pound was the only option besides staying with me.  Where they had been under the trailer had come to an end.  It was torn down and they would have ended up at the pound.  And, the pound puts pitts to sleep as there are too many and nobody wants pitts except people who should not have them.  There was snow and freezing nights the first couple months here at the new house (I moved into to rescue them after being kicked off the rez because of their coyote howling being so scary to the horse campers.)  The only warm place was the back porch room opening onto the back yard.  Had they behaved for a month more, I would have had the money to put up separate kennels at four corners of this huge chain link fenced property instead of the quickie one at one corner enclosing their kennels.  But, they just could not wait to start trouble.  Woulda, shoulda, coulda.  Maybe I could have saved, Beebee, but she started the hatred towards Whoopie always viciously barking at her and she was in on the kill at a foot level.  Maybe I could have found a trainer for Gracie to get her not to bite, but she was in on the kill though at a foot level.  Maybe Sheba could have been contained better, but she was a major contributor to Whoopie's death at a shoulder, throat level.  Maybe I should have put Acey down when he was 8 months old after the first attack on Mom's dog.  Woulda, shoulda, coulda.  My heart breaks for them all.  I doggedly cling to the memory of the good times and the bad times wake me up at night.  All the dog rescue people wanted to do was get them fixed.  Sheba's vet bill was huge and they paid $50 towards fixing her and maybe $60 towards her shots, et cetera.  There is no money for dog rescue.  People have been going broke now for years and no money left for food banks much less pet rescue.  So, I did what I could.  What kind of a nut job breeds wolf with shepherd?  Some nut job out in Jacumba does and actually sells them for hundreds with signs on the bulletin boards around here advertizing their availability and how much - even though it is illegal to breed wolfs much less mix them with shepherd.  One of those mixes bred with Sheba.  So, there you have it - pit/wolf.  I think coonhound and wolf is a bit crazy too but on the rez they let the dogs run loose and pretty much "feed" themselves and nobody fixes them.  Cats are left outside and nobody cares if they are coyote food.  Set them free.  Just part of nature.  Horse poo.  Some on the rez have come up in time but some haven't.  The rez abutts a small city.  The alcoholic/heroin addict musician (traveling a lot) indian who occasionally lived at the trailer believed in not petting them.  He did buy dog food and eat it himself with them rather than buy his food and none for them - all this after beer of course.  Set them free.  Also, there are a lot of dumped large dogs out here from people in the city who realize a lab, shepherd, pitt or chow does not fit in an apartment when grown and they dump them out here so they can feed themselves.  They die of thirst and hunger or form packs out here.  Mom's dog is a dumped lab we got when he was 6 months old and someone saw the guy dump a couple of them by where we were then.  Also, most houses have a couple of large dogs out here.  Some areas let them run free unfixed.  This particular area has them mostly behind fences.  Look at how many horses, dogs, cats are ending up dumped on the pound because people have lost their homes now.  There were two horses dumped on the rez a couple months ago.  These are times of great upheaval and pets and children come out on the short end.  We do what we can.  I agree, they would have done much better with individual homes.  They had the porch room as my best available choice to get them acclaimated to living in the house.  They shred or eat everything.  They ate their bowls.  Heaven only knows what was melted down when they were cremated.  My original 2 dogs are very old and when they die, new options would have occured for those dogs.  They did not get along with Gracie though and that would have ended up with an end like Whoopie's.  I was still hoping to get the money together to pay for a real dog trainer but mostly they want to teach regular stuff not how to not eat each other or your owner or your dishes.  That would be the Dog Whisperer and he was not interested.  Had I been rich he would have been very interested.  He is dog rescue for the rich and famous.

by ljs (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 55 comments) on Saturday, June 21, 2008 at 11:07:44 AM
 

no options

No one is blaming you.  You tried where others only added to the problem.  You do not say where all this was happening.  But from what I read, it is man largely responsible for the problem in the first place.  However, if you think pitts are inherently vicious - that is your perogative.  I believe you found yourself in an untenable position - too many homeless dogs and no one willing to help you rehome them.  Thank you for trying.

Regarding pitt bulls, my nephew has had two sweet gentle ones and would not consider any other breed to keep him company and share his life.   

by Suzana Megles (39 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 163 comments) on Saturday, June 21, 2008 at 12:08:14 PM
 

A COMMENT FROM THE DOG WHISPERER

I am currently working on an article for OEN about professional dog trainer Paul Owens, the author of the book The Dog Whisperer, published in 1999 (five years before the National Geographic show of the same name), and revised in a new edition in 2007. 

Owens is also the author of The Puppy Whisperer as well as two Dog Whisperer dog training DVDs (www.dogwhispererdvd.com).  Since Suzana mentioned that she wondered what The Dog Whisperer would say, I decided to ask him. (Please note, Owens is often referred to as the ORIGINAL Dog Whisperer and has been training dogs for over 35 years. I think that when ljs refers to “the Dog Whisperer”, she seems to be referring to Cesar Milan, who uses methods of dog training that are in direct contrast to the non-force methods promoted by Owens.)

 I asked Owens to comment on these posts and this is what he said:

"When we hear stories like the comment by ljs, this incredibly sad tale illustrates the worst case scenario of what it's like to be ‘in the trenches’ of the rescue world and the realities of life and death decisions. There is no rescue facility in the world that will accept every single dog presented. None. But many of the no-kill rescues, individuals and shelters that do accept aggressive dogs actually  have the wherewithal to keep those dogs safe.  They have the personnel and accommodations to care for those dogs' physical and emotional health, until he or she is adopted or, if need be, spend the rest of their lives in safety living at the rescue. Not every person or group has those resources. 

We do the absolute best we can with what we have and as a result, thousands of dogs and cats find loving homes. I often tell people that in an ideal world, virtually all dogs can be ‘saved.’  But in real life, money, time, and the physical and emotional health and capabilities of both dogs and their humans all factor into the decision.  Safety is paramount. Quality of life is paramount so that no dog or cat suffers. That being said, many times rescues and individual rescuers have to make tough decisions.  The thing is, these split-second life or death decisions are influenced not only by business realities, but more so by a long history of smaller decisions. It's the small acts of kindness and compassion that we choose to make throughout life that ultimately form and shape our sensitivity, intuition, and wisdom. And these are the cornerstones that support us and guide us when the difficult decisions are to be made.

Regarding the note by Suzana, whose position I entirely support, many studies have linked cruelty to animals with human-to-human violence. Promoting breed-specific legislation has the same deleterious effect. Simply put, classifying groups while ignoring and punishing, and even killing individuals, breeds ignorance and fosters more violence.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. responded this way when asked why he didn't act with physical violence in his work.  He said ‘If our goal is peace, our means must be peaceful.’ This is the philosophy that I apply in my work with dogs.

Fortunately there are studies which have also demonstrated the link between compassionate, nonviolent treatment of animals and how we treat each other. The victories of compassion over cruelty and kindness over ignorance, so positively demonstrated by the operator at the recycling plant, as well as the work done by the Suzana Megles of the world, are true beacons of hope."

by Meryl Ann Butler (47 articles, 51 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 412 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 9:24:47 AM
 

Message from the Dog Whisperer and Meryl Ann Butler

Thank you, thank you so much Meryl for picking up on my wish to hear what the Dog Whisperer would have to say on this subject and a very, very big thanx to Paul Owens, Dog Whisperer.  His beautiful, caring thoughts do not disappoint.  Would there be more people like him to speak for those who cannot.  God bless both of you and may we all together try to make this world a better place for the animals who are God's own. 

by Suzana Megles (39 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 163 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 9:37:09 AM
 

compassion

 It's good to see support for compassion, the light Suzana shines.  

by Jan Fredericks (0 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 11:11:02 AM
 

Need a Blog/Book for dog rescue of iffy dogs/pups

The dogs had more time to live, love and be happy without pain or suffering.  They were very happy dogs and loved eachother and me (to varying degrees of nature/nurture competition.)So, that was an improvement.

What I kept suggesting while I searched for help from the time I first heard about starving pups was --- There needs to be a web site of book or both on how to rescue wild abused dogs/pups.  I learned things about what to do and what not to do and a lot of people I talked to had great helpful ideas on what worked during their efforts.  Somebody write a book, open a web site.  I think a dog trainer who actually loves dogs and not just money should open a free blog specifically addressing rescuing dogs and maybe one for cats too.

Also, I do think pits are maybe one of the most noble breds.  My Staffordshire Terrier PIT is the most noble, faithfull dog I will ever have.  She still ripped a few other dogs necks when ignorant relatives left her a chance to get out and find a smaller dog to do it to.  Trilby I absolute know even at 18 would do her best to take on a cougar or bull and die trying possibly if she even saw one near much less threatening me, though when she was younger she just might have won.  She always has been a tough, valient dog.  Mom has written articles of praise about her for the museum and local paper in Campo, CA (San Diego County.)

RE the law:  I think all pits should be fixed by about 3 years of age and a ban made on BREEDERS of pits (ie, puppy mills not an individual with a dog that had pups where each gets individualized love and attention/civilizing.)  I think the insurance companies not insuring homes where pits/rotweilers are part of the family is a mistake and should be changed.  I believe pits are okay until about 2 or 3 years of age then they seem to feel their own fierceness a bit more and things can go wrong.  Pits are big in San Diego County. 

I said, in my long comment, to give each individual dog a chance but believe them when they show you who they are - that being either sweet and faithful or not so much and dangerous to people and/OR dogs.  Also, note I rescued Trilby from being possibly put down because she would never hurt a person though she hurt other dogs.  When she hurt other dogs, she did not go for the throat and meant to fight and not kill.  There is a big difference in that sort of nature than what the ones with the wolf mixed in had for a nature.   And, like a parent who has failed, I will always feel inept and a bit of a bungler with them with dire consequences for poor Whoopie. Had I not gotten hysterical, maybe things would have been different during/after the fight.  After it was over, I got my top dog attitude really under control.  Acey was still looking at me like I might be next and I was trying not to show my fear when I had to turn my back on him to get their fenced area open and then the door to the Sheba family room.

Again, there needs to be a book/blog - something -to help big-hearted ignorant rescuers with dogs, so that abandoned, abused, terrified pups can be rescued and have good long lives.  I am afraid this economy is going to create more of them.  Right now, there is absolutely nothing to help a person with that situation and yet those pups and abandoned dogs are out there and increasing and waiting for help. 

Dog Whisperer had a lecture online but I could only afford a dialup internet link and could not participate to find out what he would say and nobody ever wrote back any answers to my questions and pleas for help with a serious situation. 

I was faced with a pack of hungry dogs (shepherds and the Sheba family of pits) at an uncapped well, living off road kill and trash can scraps.  I was/am afraid of dogs.  I knew I had to do something as the owner of the property was going to call the pound when he returned in 4 months.

The Native-American who occasionally lived in the junked trailer is with a Christian woman he loves and is on strict no alcohol/drugs rules and is as creative as ever.  He was/is a good man with a bad problem as were the dogs of his.  (Also, just so you know, I had been bringing bags of food for him too when I was bringing bags and cans of dog food after I found out he was hungry and had plans to fry the canned dog food like fried spam as it had lamb in it.) Last I heard, he was doing well and things were looking up for him.

by ljs (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 55 comments) on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 at 9:50:18 AM
 

Cesar Milan Dog Whisperer

The Dog Whisperer that has the program on TV that teaches how to deal with aggressive, misbehaving dogs and individual dogs in large groups of dogs - that is Cesar Milan.  He is who most people probably think of as the Dog Whisperer.  I am sorry for any dispute over who was first and who should own the name.  Cesar Milan is the one to whom I sent the e-mails and to whom I am referring.  I never even knew about this who was first dispute. 

Frankly, any help is good help and I would have been glad for any help and searched the web for any dog training help receiving none except to shift the problem over to some other group. 

Fact that there is not enough money is no excuse for info not being available on the web on what to do to rescue dogs and cats and what to do with them afterwards besides shift the responsibility over to already overloaded dog rescue groups.  Blaming does not get the problem fixed.  What I found on the web was help for misbehaving dogs and cutsie stuff not the serious problems involved with protection breeds of dogs such as pits.  Stories of successes feel better but the stories of success/failure stories are really good learning tools.  We learn from failures as much as successes which is why I spent all this time discussing my success/failure even though it bites into my puny wages terribly, especially on this (cheap) land line, and is a bit embarrasing and re-lives that sorrow of how it ended. 

Someone who advertises themselves on the web as info/help on dogs should really provide infor for free on how to safely and successfully save them to have long lives.  There would not be as many unwanted pits being put down at the pound if people had more info on how to handle them safely and successfully, especially after having had a troubled beginning. 

Anybody out there want to do it?  There are groups rescuing pits that have been used for fighting. If that is not a pool of info that needs tapping there never was one. 

 I do not like the fear rushs and the top dog aggressiveness that that type of dog bring to my life.  I do not want another but would help with info for someone else who actually knows what they are doing and will put that info out for free on the web and maybe put into a book.  Humans help each other.  Dogs have been with humans since before towns arose.  We need to help their integration into todays world by helping the people who help the discards of this civilization of humans with dogs and for free.

by ljs (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 55 comments) on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 at 11:39:14 AM
 

I like dogs too

Liking dogs and being a good dog owner has nothing to do with this issue.  The fact is that these dogs can easily turn into killers.  They have killed, maimed and injured countless innocent children.  You can say all you want about how pitbulls are so nice when treated right but that is meaningless.  As long as pitbulls are an accepted family dog, there will be unnecessary deaths of children who innocently trust that people will control their pets.  Unfortunately, a large number of pitbull owners have only one thing in mind...have a vicious dog and scare people with it.  These people have serious inferiority complexes and are generally afraid of their own shadow.  Voices in their heads tell them they must PROTECT themselves from imaginary villains.  They possess killer dogs that detract from the ability of others to pursue their own happiness and enjoy freedom.  They add a culture of violence to our already extremely violent culture.  The fact that some idiots keep insisting that these are nice little puppies, sweet as bunnies just shows how stupid Americans can get.  After all, most Americans are so stupid they cannot even name two past Presidents.  Its these same pusilanamous ignoramuses that want to tell us all 'how it is' and make insane claims that these dogs are just so innocent.  There was even one couple whose pitbill killed their own son and they still stood by it, defending it against criticism.  Fortunately it was put to sleep by smarter people, like all these dog-weapons should be.  Pitbull owners are frightened arrogant idiots who think they know something when, in fact, they are as stupid as their own pitbulls.  If a pitt comes on my property I will kill it fast and sleep like baby afterwards.  But dog lovers live in a world of their own.  Their attitude belies a sense of superiority and they believe in their righteousness.  They care more about their dogs than about people or society.  They are stuck on the infantile notion that they are entitled to keep evil and dangerous animals.  They act all hurt and indignant when anyone discusses the topic.  Being a pitbill owner is a sickness in itself.  Declaring their own rightousness is a sign that these fools are truly whack nuts.  But hey, what do you expect after decades of poor education and national propaganda?  The result is we have to put up with a bunch of idiots who are so selfish they cannot be reasonable, so emotionally attached to their stupid dogs that they cannot see anything else, and so stupid they are incapable of having an informed discussion on the topic.  Naturally Americans will get to keep their killer dogs and guns.  And so we can count on continued attacks by these killer dogs that will go on killing innocent children and we can count on listening to the idiots who defend them.  What's wrong with this picture?

by jeff rock (5 articles, 1 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 92 comments) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 at 10:09:20 PM
 

Protect children not dogs

Can you guarantee that there will not be so-called 'cruel owners'?  If not then pitbulls should be banned until you can.  Why take a chance with someone's life?  Will you be there to comfort the families whose child has been killed by a pit?  Will you pay for the medoical bills?  Heck no because you are more concerned with pandering to people's sick notion that keeping weapon-dogs is an innocent sweet kind thing to do.  I would need a team of proctologists to find your head.  Its people like you that ruin it for everyone else.  I suppose you like guns too!

by jeff rock (5 articles, 1 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 92 comments) on Thursday, June 26, 2008 at 10:19:59 PM
 

banning pit bulls

oekoman--- I hope you will take the time to go to the National Canine Research Council web site.  Thank you for making me go there because of your erroneous thoughts and deductions.  At least, I doubt  the NCRC will concur with them.  I was even glad they referred to Lakewood, Ohio's attempt to ban pit bulls.  They very adequately knocked down all the reasoning behind Brian Powers legislation for banning them.  They use documented research -not a hodgepodge of different people's opinions-- including articles from newspaper reporters and politicians.

The site has so many wonderful links I found it difficult to choose which statement (s) I should print here but here goes:  "It was interesting that Mr. Powers quoted from the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta - "Every legitimate study conducted in America, including the study by the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, has demonstrated that pit bull bites are more likely to result in a fatality than bites or attacks by any other breed."

"The NCRC comment:  Mr. Powers has either misunderstood or misrepresented the study in question.  In response to politicians, such as Mr. Powers, misquoting and misusing their study, the CDC has posted the following statement on their website:

"A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years. IT DOES NOT IDENTIFY SPECIFIC BREEDS THAT ARE MOST LIKELY TO BITE OR KILL, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic.......There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill."

Also at this site was a News Release: June 9, 2008 - Dutch Government to lift 25-year ban on pit bulls.  Reason - because it did not lead to any decrease in bite accidents.

At one of the links I read that most of Michael Vick's pit bull dogs who were treated brutally have since found loving homes where they have responded with the same loving treatment they have received.  

There was also a link re all the states and the incidences of dog bites in each state.  I checked Ohio's record and nothing stood out re vicious dog attacks.  In fact, of all the factors there which led to deaths - dog biting was almost a none issue.  

Anyone who is truly interested in finding the truth re this issue should go to the National Canine Research Council web site.  It is a font of information based on research - not hearsay, hysteria, or sensationalized reporting.  

by Suzana Megles (39 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 163 comments) on Friday, June 27, 2008 at 9:19:47 AM
 

Who is more dangerous?

"Liking dogs and being  a good dog owner has nothing to do with it." 

You could not possibly be any more wrong.  There is NO documented case where a family obtained a single Pit bull, had it spayed or neutered and kept the dog inside the house as a companion animal and then that dog was involved in a human fatality.  This fact very much speaks to the difference between good owners and bad owners.

What you cannot possibly see through your blind anger and hatred is that they will always be cruel, irresponsible and dangerous PEOPLE, and some of these people will own dogs for their own selfish ends - and when they do, no what what breed of dog they own - those dogs will be a danger.  It has absolutely nothing to do with the breed of dog - it has to do with what function the dog serves for the owner.

Between 1965 and 1975, Pit bulls and Rottweilers combined, were responsible for less than 2% of all the fatal dog attacks in the United States.  How do you account for that?  The reason for that is, because other breeds were popular with reckless, irresponsible and cruel owners, and so those breeds were then found in fatal attacks.  When reckless, cruel owners became bored with those breeds they moved on to Rottweilers and pit bulls. And when these same type of individuals get bored with Pit bulls they will move on to another breed. Then we will find this  "new" breed involved in attacks and fatalities.

You sweeping condemnation of all  Pit bulls and all Pit bull owners, your insults and hateful words belie an aggressive nature that few Pit bulls could match.  

Fortunately, there are very, very few aggressive Pit bulls.

Sadly, there are many, many more aggressive, and hateful people. 

Which is why there are only about 24 fatal dog attacks per year, -  yet there are approx. 17,000 people murdered by "humans" each year.

Those facts and your post indicate very clearly which is the more dangerous species.

by Karen Delise (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Friday, June 27, 2008 at 6:36:07 PM