I commend your detailed follow through on this theme.  It has been sad that the trends of some cultural artifacts have so much influence.

I particularly enjoyed the Values of Psycopaths reference. Though I think what was meant was actually "Sociopath" (the difference being the ability to know the difference between right and wrong but choosing the wrong), but the main point definitely hits home.

Lately there has seemed to be a cultural grasp of "values" that tend toward the self-selving at all cost mentality. It is furthered by the reinforcement it gives.  I realize that this is not a universal phenomenon (thank goodness!) but the disconnect and loss of empathy are very disturbing.

Though I do not want to sound like a religious nut or someone trying to be placed in a superior spiritual frame, I believe that a revision of the collective consciousness and identity (not to necessarily suggest Communism or another political frame, but just having a consciousness that reflects the needs and values of others and supports empathy).

I hope that this will able to be realized in the frame of our cultural society.

by Jeremy Haumann (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 54 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 8:53:18 AM

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Maybe it was just me but I heard something in the speech last night that pretty much blew me away.

Palin quote:

America needs more energy. Our opponent is against producing it. Victory in Iraq is finally in sight and he wants to forfeit. (Boos.) Terrorist states are seeking nuclear weapons without delay. He wants to meet them without preconditions. (Boos.) Al Qaeda terrorists still plot to inflict catastrophic harm on America, and he's worried that someone won't read them their rights. (Boos, cheers, applause.)

Is the bold sentence in the quote above in regard to what is known is Habeas Corpus or lack there of?

Am I the only one that is bothered by that comment?

There were many other chest beating/saber rattling comments made but the one above is the one that sticks in my mind the most.

As a great man once said, if Tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. (James Madison 1700's) (This is the 21st century!!!)

Guess what, tyranny is here!!!

by Hal Smith (4 articles, 1 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 67 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 8:55:13 AM

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I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that. It sent shivers down my spine when I heard it and the crowd's reaction was scary. That is the same old-same old rhetoric (failed values?) that we have been hearing for several decades. The longer we think that way and move in that direction, the more we become like a cold war relic, and without any real compassion or conviction at all.

Beyond that, the woman was generally either lying through her teeth, bending the truth or denying  historical facts.  But then again, she is a Republican. They issue their own licenses for that, I think.

And I WAS a community organizer. And I did have responsibilities...to real, live people on the street. Thankfully one of them was finding ways to aggravate the devil out of the city mayor who spent too much time in his office in a big chair.She is snooty and uninformed.

I know the grunts love her, but they have sadly simplistic and misguided moral and ethical precepts. 

by Ivan Hentschel (12 articles, 0 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 302 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:31:43 AM

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why can the other party not see this,  they cry peace but riot in the streets burn flags, break windows, turn over cars and say we have failed values?

by don bybee (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 206 comments) on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:52:55 PM

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I commend your detailed follow through on this theme.  It has been sad that the trends of some cultural artifacts have so much influence.

I particularly enjoyed the Values of Psycopaths reference. Though I think what was meant was actually "Sociopath" (the difference being the ability to know the difference between right and wrong but choosing the wrong), but the main point definitely hits home.

Lately there has seemed to be a cultural grasp of "values" that tend toward the self-selving at all cost mentality. It is furthered by the reinforcement it gives.  I realize that this is not a universal phenomenon (thank goodness!) but the disconnect and loss of empathy are very disturbing.

Though I do not want to sound like a religious nut or someone trying to be placed in a superior spiritual frame, I believe that a revision of the collective consciousness and identity (not to necessarily suggest Communism or another political frame, but just having a consciousness that reflects the needs and values of others and supports empathy).

I hope that this will able to be realized in the frame of our cultural society.

by Jeremy Haumann (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 54 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:05:03 AM

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Conservatives seem to thrive on the Failed Conservative Value  of war and culture wars. They seem to need it to feed their souls. 

 Barack Obama is running a campaign with the progressive value of empathy at its core. Here is a video project I'm doing on Obama and empathy. I've collect over 25 of his speeches where he directly talks about the importance of empathy.

Barrack Obama on Empathy Video Project
http://progressivespirit.com/Projects/Obama-Empathy-Video/index.htm

While I feel progressives need to stay grounded in their value of empathy, they also need to stand up to the failed conservative values that want to crush empathy. That is what the value of justice is about to me.

Failed Conservative Values:  Violence and Brutality
		This article is a rather harsh critique of deeper Failed Conservative Values.  In interviews, Richard Wagner told me he thinks thuggery is a failed conservative value and Herman Blackmon mentioned the lynch mob. I didn't think that either the lynch mob or thuggery were actually values. They seem more like manifestations of a value or perhaps of multiple values. View @:DemocracyforAmerica.com  - Opednews.com - Dailykos.com - Groups.yahoo

edwin
http://progressivespirit.com

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:44:09 PM

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Edwin,

Like a lot of progressives you're great at identufying problems. Unfortunately, you don't understand their nature or cause &, therefore, don't see the solutions.  

You talk about Katrina, for example. I see that as a failure of progressive values. It's the progressives that wanted the government to handle that kind of situation & look what it got us.

You talk about Iraq, which I agree was wrong to invade. What about Bill Clinton's policies that killed hundreds of thousands of people there? What about Kennedy/Johnson getting us into the Vietnam War? Or FDR & WW II? Or Truman & Korea? Or Wilson & WW I? Were these the failure of conservative values? Here's something to consider on this subject:

I see alleged conservatives behaving like liberals.  After all, the Bush government still sends out Social security & welfare checks, food stamps, expanded Medicaid, supports Medicare, supports government lower education, finances higher education, regulates business, subsidizes farmers & who knows who else. Sounds progressive to me. This is what failed.

BTW, you still haven't interviewed any conservatives. 

by Darren Wolfe (15 articles, 400 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 1031 comments [84 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:38:15 AM

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"You talk about Katrina, for example. I see that as a failure of progressive values. It's the progressives that wanted the government to handle that kind of situation & look what it got us."

 Darren, thanks for the relpy.

This is the perfect example of the failure of conservative values. You embody and  express them perfectly.  First  you embody the failed conservative value of irresponsibility. The conservative Bush administration was in change.  They gutted FEMA and put their corrupt cronies in charge with the direct outcome of a failed Katrina response. 

Conservatives claim to value personal responsibility. So when you are valuing irresponsibility, you are manifesting your failed conservative value of hypocrisy. You embody and manifest the failed conservative value of scapegoating. Instead of taking responsibility for you failures, you try to find someone else to blame.  The country is on to your failed conservative values of irresponsibility, hypocrisy, blame and  scapegoating.  These values all wrap themselves up in your overall failed conservative value of self-delusion. (I'll be posting an interview about conservative self-delusion shortly).

Failed Conservative Values: Jeeni Criscenzo on Scapegoating
		I interviewed Jeeni Criscenzo in Sacramento, California. Jeeni brought up the prevalent use of scapegoating by conservatives.  I find it curios how a Conservative Movement that preaches individual responsibility is so adept at finding scapegoats and not taking true responsibility. I think it has to do with the type of responsibility they preach. It is not the unqualified progressive sense of responsibility, where you feel responsible for yourself and the society around you, but rather conservatives always talk about a qualified 'individual responsibility' which actually is really no longer true responsibility, but rather a value of selfish self-centeredness. It's like taking the value of love or caring and saying we're for 'individual love' or 'individual caring'.  The values lose their meaning and are turned into nothing but the Failed Conservative Value of individual selfishness and greed. View @: DemocracyforAmerica.com - Opednews.com - Dailykos.com

Failed Conservative Values: Congresswoman Maxine Waters on Blame, Hate & Lying
		I interviewed Congresswoman Maxine Waters and asked her about progressive and conservative values. In this section, Maxine mentions that conservatives have tricked people with the failed conservative values of  blame, hate and lying.   These values are also failing because more people are not following them anymore and in fact,  people are starting to turn toward progressives values. She goes on to talk about how the occupation of Iraq is a metaphor for the failure of conservative values.  View @: DemocracyforAmerica.com - Opednews.com  (Poll) - Dailykos.com

Fatally Flawed Conservative Value of  Hypocrisy
		Several people I asked about the failure of conservative values mentioned hypocrisy.   Michelle, Owen and Steve  brought up examples of conservative hypocrisy in;  family values, education,  finance, the economy,  the occupation of Iraq and in human rights. While we all may exhibit varying degrees of hypocrisy in our lives, it seems that the conservative movement has embraced and institutionalized this value. View @: DemocracyforAmerica - Opednews.com  Poll   - Dailykos - Groups.Yahoo

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 12:25:53 PM

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I'm not a conservative, that should be obvious from my comment.

Talking about scapegoating, you ignore the fact that government has a certain nature. Its corrupt & inept. It doesn't matter who's running it.

You're also ignoring the points I made about liberal war starters & Bush's welfare state.

by Darren Wolfe (15 articles, 400 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 1031 comments [84 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:14:40 PM

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but you are holding failed conservative values. 

What would you then say are conservative values and have they failed?

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:35:29 PM

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Might not call yourself conservative

but you are holding failed conservative values. 

What would you then say are conservative values and have they failed?

by Darren Wolfe (15 articles, 400 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 1031 comments [84 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:09:10 PM

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Darren

"Conservative values are things like
free markets,
the gold standard,
peaceful foreign policy,
limited government."
these are principles and polices and not values.   you are confusing principles with values.

the list here will help clarify the differences.
http://progressivespirit.com/Projects/OrganizationsValues/index.htm

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 at 4:08:11 PM

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Darren

Edwin's unusual thesis is that those qualities that just about any English speaker would agree are "values' (because people .. uh .. value them.  Go figure!) are not values at all.  A 'conservative value" for Edwin is any negative qualitative noun you can think of. (Check out the list.  Better make coffee).

Positive qualitative nouns need not apply:  those are 'progressive values'. 

Curiouser and curiouser ....

by tim bristol (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 89 comments) on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 at 3:49:49 PM

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Darren,

I don’t have time for a long rejoinder, but I wish to make a point on your comment.

“Neocons represent none of these things. They stand for empire, big government, regulation, fiat money, & war. Things they learned from the progressives. This has failed.”

The first part is true that neocons are to blames. However, they did not learn this from progressives – they despise progressives in every way. Please, read here a sampling from neocon apologist, Dinesh D’Souza, to understand their utter hatred of progressives.

As Edwin pointed out earlier, you are looking for someone to blame again within the progressive/liberal/democratic tent for Bush and the neoconservative failures of the past eight years.

If I may, I would suggest to you that you read about Leo Strauss and his ideology – this is where these ideas of empire, imperialism and a ruling class elite emanate from and were embraced by the contemporary movers of this perverse idea of governing – the PNAC and all its players.

Progressives are not the cause of what ails this nation, nor are we the enemy of libertarians; it is the failed policies of the neocons and the disastrous conservative values of the Bush years and all his sycophants and cronies incompetence.

by Frank J. Ranelli (66 articles, 143 quicklinks, 29 diaries, 383 comments) on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 at 4:12:21 PM

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Who failed to be more serious about the probability of the levee break? Who failed to evacuate those people? What government was in control. You sound like Bush the other night trying to blame out, his own faults.

You know, my husband worked for FEMA after Katrina. FEMA was ran by very stupid, irresponsible people. Not only did our government have absolutely no organized method of saving those people before the storm. They had no organized method of getting the survivors the help they needed after the storm. The whole thing was fly by the seat of your pants, literally. My husband was beaten by muggers for the laptop he had, from FEMA. He was sent from one city to another during Rita. He was sent into communities he couldn't access because of the trees in the way. This man saw first hand how uncaring and unorganized this administration is.

So who do you believe should help those in need? Warren Buffet, great guy mind you, entered into a deal with the Florida government, which paid $224,000,000 so Buffet would promise to buy 4 billion worth of bonds  as insurance to cover our loss, just in case we have damage this year totalling over 25 billion from hurricanes, that insurance would not cover. Do you think he would do it? Or maybe insurance companies would help.. Ha Ha

You want to blame progressives for lack of help with Katrina, are you serious?

by Yvonne (5 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 38 comments) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 4:38:54 PM

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Before I get started, don't take what I say as a defense of neocons, it's not. I'm just trying to point out that progressives share the blame.

Who failed to be more serious about the probability of the levee break? Who failed to evacuate those people? What government was in control.

How about the Democrats that run Louisiana & New Orleans? They were part of the problem too.

You sound like Bush the other night trying to blame out, his own faults.

It's the progressives that started the idea that the government should handle these kinds of things. That's my point. This is the world that progressives made.

You know, my husband worked for FEMA after Katrina. FEMA was ran by very stupid, irresponsible people. Not only did our government have absolutely no organized method of saving those people before the storm. They had no organized method of getting the survivors the help they needed after the storm. The whole thing was fly by the seat of your pants, literally. My husband was beaten by muggers for the laptop he had, from FEMA. He was sent from one city to another during Rita. He was sent into communities he couldn't access because of the trees in the way. This man saw first hand how uncaring and unorganized this administration is.

Government has a nature, it's corrupt & inept. It doesn't matter who the leaders are. Read this & this. Were the conservatives to blame in '92 also?

So who do you believe should help those in need? Warren Buffet, great guy mind you, entered into a deal with the Florida government, which paid $224,000,000 so Buffet would promise to buy 4 billion worth of bonds  as insurance to cover our loss, just in case we have damage this year totalling over 25 billion from hurricanes, that insurance would not cover. Do you think he would do it? Or maybe insurance companies would help.. Ha Ha

It's no wonder that people live in these dangerous areas when the government subsidizes (however ineptly) their living there. Abolish FEMA & related agencies & allow a private system to develop where people bear the burden of living in these risky areas themselves. Then you might see people making more rational choices about where to live. This will greatly reduce the need for emergency services.

You want to blame progressives for lack of help with Katrina, are you serious?

Hey, the government looks a lot more like what progressives want it to be than what the Founders did. So, yes, progressives are to blame.

by Darren Wolfe (15 articles, 400 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 1031 comments [84 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 at 5:19:40 AM

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 Darren, doesn't Bob Barr fit the bill?

Presidential Candidate Bob Barr on the Failure of Conservative Values

At Netroots Nation in Austin, Texas, you can always tell when a VIP is in the room.  Just look for the person with a deferential crowed gathered around them and  follow the direction the cameras are pointed. While I feel uncomfortable standing so deferentially in anyone's presence, I have a job to do, and that's to find out how exactly conservative values have failed. So, when I saw a crowd gathered in the hallway, I moseyed on over with my video camera in hand and worked myself into the front of the crowed.  There was  Bob Barr, the Libertarian presidential candidate. After patiently waiting for the other interviewers to finish asking their questions, I asked Bob, "Have Conservative Values Failed?"

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 7:16:05 PM

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That's why I wrote this:

The Conservative Takeover of the Libertarian Party

He's not a libertarian.

I would think that you'd interview one of the neocons like Krauthammer or Rumsfeld or someone like that to really get at the people you describe though. Barr is more of an old right conservative than a neocon.

by Darren Wolfe (15 articles, 400 quicklinks, 141 diaries, 1031 comments [84 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:01:57 PM

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not to know Al CIAda and its leader Osma Bin Laden was called a "Freedom Fighter" by Ronald Reagan, before being re-labeled a "Terrorist" by  Republicans less than 10 years later. Who is the GOP working with today that will be public enemy #1 in the near future?

She ostracizes the Washington Elite, ridiculing her running mate who has been in Washington as a representative of Arizona for decades.

Or her hiring a lobbyist to solicit over $200 million in federal earmarks while she was mayor. Her being for the Bridge To No-where before she was against it.

She thinks the War Of Terror based off of lies and deceit is being led by General Jesus in a modern day Crusade against Islam.

How she is against abortion, but slashed funding for unwed mother housing programs in Alaska.

She became pregnant before she was married and her daughter has done the same. So the saying, daughter is like mother is very fitting in this instance. 

Yes, the GOP "Greed & Oppression Party" is one big family of hypocrites that couldn't be successful at anything without subsidies, kickbacks, or bailouts. With the mantra of; Do As I Say, Not As I Do applied to everyone else but themselves.

by Stanimal (2 articles, 226 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 1254 comments [234 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:09:56 AM

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Here is the poll that goes with this post:
Should progressives confront Sara Palin and failed conservatives values?

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:29:43 PM

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most of those "conservative values" you keep speaking of as translated to "conservative policy" is really "Corrupt BIG GOVERNMENT POLICY" paid for by Corporate America.

This policy you hold up as a failure is  NOT conservative, that is NOT Libertarian,  and, to be blunt, the Democrats in the Beltway are as much to blame as the Republicans...

(hence the 9% approval rating for DEMOCRAT run CONgress)

Topics like this one are simply rhetoric, because nobody, despite the overwhelming evidence against the points brought up by the author of the OP, many of you here flat out refuse to stray from your talking points..

so, I answer the poll with a description of reality.

Ciao, CZ

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:44:46 PM

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One has to get one's terminology correct. The term conservative is really an innocuous euphemisn for a movement that is anything but conservative, but rather REACTIONARY in every sense of the word, if not utterly nihilistic, it's defining parameters being FEAR and VIOLENCE.

by Mac McKinney (53 articles, 113 quicklinks, 240 diaries, 1413 comments [31 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:36:37 PM

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Truth is your party is upset because Sara knows how to talk smack and doesn't take crap off  anyone, and the  1st Vice President in the White House will be a Republican...   and you're upset Hillary didn't make it.  Obama has failed policies,   you cannot give free health care and expect the working class to pay for it.  It's a failed system in Canada, and  Canadians come to America for their health care because they don't want to wait for three months for treatment..    If it's free sometings wrong. 

What's better to have a tyrant killing thousands of people or have the problem eliminated ?  I believe the people in Iraq danced in the streets when the statues of Saddam were turned...  Your party  doesn't want Bush to succeed..  that's why we've heard last year we were losing the War, now America knows were're winning  the War in Iraq... 

If Obama is elected, I guarantee he will no longer think Iran is a small country...   America needs to hate terriorist not each other.. you don't do it by breaking windows, turning over cars and burning flags.  ... but say they are anti war...   something is not  right

Go McCain /Palin 

by don bybee (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 206 comments) on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 at 6:14:42 PM

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"Conservatives seem to thrive on the Failed Conservative Value of war and culture wars. They seem to need it to feed their souls. Barack Obama is running a campaign with the progressive value of empathy at its core." -- Edwin

by Alan Williams (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 858 comments) on Friday, Sep 5, 2008 at 8:56:28 PM

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thanks for the comment Alan,

I'd say "community organizing"  is not a value.
community is a value and maybe organizing is a value.  Not sure about that one.  But, "community organizing"  as a value is like saying 'business organizing' is a value. The underlying value conservatives really have in this case is the value of 'demeaning'. It's the value of putting people down. I'd say all work of any kind has a dignity and worth. 

btw. Here's more  on Obama and empathy,
http://progressivespirit.com/Projects/Obama-Empathy-Video/

It's quite clear that conservatives need war.  The unnecessary war and occupation  of  Iraq, for example, worked great as a manipulation tool to win the 04 election. It cost quite a few lives, but that doesn't seem to matter. The failed conservative value of power at all cost is more important.  It's the same strategy of reviving the conservative 'culture wars'.  Create conflict, turmoil, hate, meanness, nastiness, demean, etc. You can see the delight of the RNC crowed.  I think empathy and respect would be more effective at solving the worlds problems than the failed conservative 'culture wars'.

Conservatives have been so lucky that progressives have been so bad at articulating their own values and taking on the failure of conservative values.  However, those days are coming to an end. 

by Edwin Rutsch (64 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 155 comments) on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:43:05 PM

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so did LBJ...  Those guys were NOT conservative, unless the definition has changed over the past several decades..

Ciao, CZ

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:09:12 PM

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I'm sorry, but I still fail to see any logic or sense in your "failed values" concept.

It doesn't make any sense to say that "conservatives need war", because all parties and persuasions have embraced war, and used war, to their advantage, and we would hope at least in their minds  to the country's advantage.  What I think this says is simply that sometimes war is necessary, and leaders, of whatever stripe, realize that upon taking power.

Empathy is fine and dandy, but one could make a very strong case that it's a failed progressive "value".  Becaue their approach to empathy often does more harm than good to the person or group they're attempting to empathise with.

Welfare is a good example of this.  Supposedly empathy for the poor from progressives, but limiting it and reforming it, a conservative initiative, has helped those formerly receiving it in hugely more important ways.  Obama even admitted that he was wrong on welfare reform at the Saddleback forum, I think it was.

There's a reason why twice as many Americans identify themselves as conservative as they do liberal, and have for several decades.  Conservative "values" are inherently more valuable, sensible and valid than (modern/progressive) liberal ones, regardless of a few bums here and there failing to live up to them or stand up for them. 

When conservatives stand up unashamedly for conservative values, they usually succeed and win.

When liberals stand up for (modern/progressive) liberal values, they lose.  Hence, they are forever trying to hide their true ambitions. 

by Alan Williams (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 858 comments) on Saturday, Sep 6, 2008 at 2:25:44 PM

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Failed Government policies?  Strange how the Governor got involved this time in New Orleans and there were no casualties..Your team cries peace no war but riot in the streets, burn flags, break windows out of businesses, turn over cars.. and cry peace?  Seems like there's something wrong here.. How about going up against Congress failed policies since we let Nancy take over, and now we want to elect a new sheriff in town? 

Everyone has forgotten 9-11 and Obama says Iran is a small country..   What's  he saying about Russia?  Now we your party says we can end this war...  (now that it's been proven to be victory-  a war that couldn't be won)  and go after Afganistan, I guess that's not war..

Tax the gas companies so they'll cut production, that'll teach them to make a profit ..  Obama wants change...  tax the big guys, so they'll downsize and hope the unemployment  won't go up. 

Next thing ya know, the white folks will be sitting in the back of the bus.

NOBAMA  wants to put lipstick on pigs .. ya gotta laugh

by don bybee (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 206 comments) on Wednesday, Sep 10, 2008 at 8:47:37 PM

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