If we are going to bring the torturers to justice, it would seem that we should start at the top with Cheney, Bush, Gonzales and their Neo con-artist gang.

by David Salaam Goldstein (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 41 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Jan 11, 2009 at 11:20:15 PM

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... prosecutions.

99.99% of the time they bust the small fry, get them to flip and work their way up the ladder, not the other way around.

If you're going to be an apologist for Obaaaama, you'll have to do better than this.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:07:23 AM

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... but we don't have a government, we haven't had one for a long time, not even a sembalance of one for the past 40 years. We have a criminal organization that's about to crumble and take us down with them becuase most people are to ignorant (mind controlled), stupid (brainwashed), and scared (cowards) to do what needs to be done.

Enjoy what's left of the little time we have left, we're all going down.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:00:55 AM

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More of the same of what we've been handed.....  they are all from the same CFR New World Order mold. 

by Dennis Kaiser (20 articles, 0 quicklinks, 35 diaries, 730 comments [137 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:45:43 AM

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obama will take the oath for office on a bible --if there  is no accountability for cia trash, then MR M  is right we have no government [the way it should be]---the message sent to the rest of the world will be the same----accountability is key to starting over, we will see  soon enough thats for sure--watching the 4 prez's get togather last wk.--i couldnt help but notice eyes and body launguage from obama and more so from carter--they dont like bush one bit--especialy carter -obama avoids eye contact--and carter looked like he didnt want to be around bush at all--i read carters books--he was the first to confirm torture with credibility--HE KNOWS WHATS UP

by TRADESMAN (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 335 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:28:47 AM

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I have a feeling Obama has told the Bush admin the very same thing.  So, he will be very even handed with his letting people wallk :)

by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:12:29 AM

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This topic is somewhat akin to beating a dead horse.  At the end of the day, no matter what is written, either pro or con, there will be no prosecutions. 

In reality, in all walks of life, the policy of CYA (Cover Your Ass) prevails at all levels.  The dumb and the poor are typically the only ones that get caught and then convicted simply because they cannot afford high dollar lawyers.  An American jury is going to consider a higher ranking person to be more credible than a lower ranking person in the military or the CIA.  It is normal instinct for people to protect their own bacon, and they will do so at any cost.  

Look back at the last war criminal prosecution of any note - that of William Calley, Jr. for his role in the My Lai Masacre in 1968.  Calley fits into the category or the role of being one tin soldier.  

The lower level people who may have tortured have three defenses which any jury will accept.  One is that they were operating under direct orders.  Those who gave the orders of course have covered their asses sufficiently so that no one can touch them.  The second defense is one of pervasive fear for their own lives, and the lives of their comrades in arms.  The third defense is that they were ignanimously duped into believing that every Muslim was a potential terrorist, and hence, was or could be the sourse of a wealth of information if pursuaded.  The information and training that these people received specifically states that the enemy has been trained to resist normal interrogation methods.  

The government would have a difficult time prosecuting these types of alleged crimes when looked at in context with their claims for holding suspected terrorists.  In all prosecutions the government claims that it has obtained substantial and incriminating evidence from those charged with those crimes that have made America safer.

People sitting on a jury are going to be more concerned with the safety of America than they are with any infractions of the law.  

KKK murderers could not be prosecuted in reasonable time frames of their crimes because of public sentiment.  It was only 40+ years after their crimes that justice could be pursued.  With the cases of torture, the statute of limitations will have expired.  For some of the torture that took place already, the statute of limitations either has, or is close to running out.  

Some things in life are perhaps best to be used as lessons for the future rather than pursuing a pound of flesh.  Airing the dirty laundry of America at a time when it is trying to change opinions about America is not necessarily a good idea.

by The Old Codger (32 articles, 1 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 285 comments [198 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:31:18 AM

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Thanks to all writers for comments. David Goldstein is right that the public should start at the top, (with Bush/Cheney) in prosecuting the culprits. We can't let the thousands of people who have been wrongly imprisoned by Bush/Cheney to have suffered only to have what the Old Codger calls letting it go as just "a lesson for the future." The U.S. has no future if it imprisons, renditions, and tortures human beings without accountability.  As for Jersey Girl, it appears from Jan. 12 NYT story that you may be right, that Obama will let Bush people walk, and that's an outcome to be condemned by every American. I don't know where Mr. M. gets the notion that anything I wrote makes me "an apologist" for Obama, which I am not. He has got to undertake this fight for justice. If he allows the Bush regime criminals to walk he might as well open up all the prisons and let the 2-million prisoners walk as well and rationalize it by saying he's "looking to the future" and let's forget about the past. Why isn't a ghetto kid imprisoned for selling pot for a livelihood entitled to the same clemency that CIA killers apparently are going to get?

Sherwood Ross 

by Sherwood Ross (222 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 155 comments [4 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:26:43 AM

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... it was the first commenter. And when it comes to prosecutions, it's typical to bust a lower echelon, get them to flip, and than testify against the bigger perps. But as far as I'm concerned we need to indict nearly every person in our entire government.

And you can forget about Obama going after justice. That's not what they placed him in office for. Obama is nothing more than the new head of the criminal organization, it would be like expecting a new mob boss to indict the old mob boss for the same crimes both commit.

And as far as letting prisoners out, if you're referring to the 85% of those in prison because of pot busts, you bet. The only growth industries we now have are debt collection, law enforcement and prisons, which doesn't speak very well for our so-called democratic republic, but speaks volumes for a fascist corporate state 

We need to legalize pot, which won't happen because our criminal government happens to be the biggest drug smuggling/dealing ring in the world. It's why we need to overthrow this government by any means necessary.

Let me make this clear, there is no fixing this through formally normal channels, that boat left the dock long ago, if it was ever there. Voting won't do it because the whole system is a farce. Appealing to our so-called reps won't do it because we don't matter to them.

Our government is trying to kill us. They are our enemy. And if you don't believe that you're not aware that 9/11 was an inside job, of the meeting on Iron Mountain, our continued bio-warfare, Eugenics, Chemtrails, and a host of other things that with a few taps of your computer keys one can find out.

Half-hearted measures aren't going to work anymore. When people are trying to kill you they'll do any number of other crimes below that to achieve that goal, and to think of them as anything else but your enemy is to invite your own demise.

This revolution will be forced upon us, whether you want it or not it's coming. It's time to stop with the nuance and prepare.

"Those that make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable." John F. Kennedy

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 10:34:36 AM

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Yes, I read the NY times article by David Johnston:

Here's the link for those who haven't.  I saw Obama on Stephanapoulous and wanted to throw my shoe at him when he said "we need to look forward, not backward"

by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:16:12 PM

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... "go f*ck yourself people, bush gets a get out of jail free card", just like he's gotten all his life.

I don't know JG if there is such a thing as justice in this world ... I guess we'll have to wait for the next one for that.

But I sure would like to see just a little of it in this one, being here now and all, because as much as I'd like to believe in a "next" world, how do we know we'd get to witness having the pleasure of watching them get theirs, or that we might not be too busy getting our own comeupence to notice?

I'd hate to think we're going to miss our Nuremberg Trials.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:39:31 PM

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Obama has no power. It has been veery carefully crafted and his appointees show that.  The precedent sets the perception and if  he knew that he had power he would calmly say that he  would order the DOJ to investigate ANYONE under the law.  But he won't.   In fact, Bush had no power either.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 11:42:38 AM

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Mark you are absolutely correct. All of the 'players' that end up on the TV screen are actors--they are playing a role given them by the hidden hand behind the curtain.

This is not government this is predation. The head of the predator is the financial cabal that calls the shots.

The "government" is a racket, and the people are the marks, just like in a carney road show.

Official history is nothing but mythology, and maistream 'historians' are simply Mytholigists, trained shamans of illusions.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:27:48 PM

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Every human being is mortal and can choose to send a message with his or her life or not to.  Monks set fire to themselves in protest. People of principle occassionally choose assassination (Bonhoeffer) or revolution rather than acquiencence.

That so many inconsequential humans are born only to pass through the world living lives of no consequence and then be buried and deservedly forgotten is because they consented not to live for any value greater than themselves. That is what disempowers. 

There is enormous power in the office of the President of the United States. When a President acts boldly the media will report it.

There is considerable power in being a citizen of the United States - what is missing is character.

by Brett Paatsch (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 23 diaries, 1308 comments) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:22:21 PM

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"There is enormous power in the office of the President of the United States. When a President acts boldly the media will report it."--Rubbish

Yes, this is why the power elite hand picks, vets and developes any who they will allow to hold that post.

Your assessment reveals you are viewing "reality" through a very narrow programmed frame.

“Through control of the universe of discourse, including the media, the professions, the universities, the publishing industry, many of the churches, the consumer society, the job market, and even the very socialization of our children and the prefiguring of our own perceptions, the ruling interests are able to exercise a prevailing ideological control that excludes any reasoned critique of the dominant paradigm.”--Michael Parenti

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:38:03 AM

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No charges, no prosecutions, no justice. There will be no repeal in FISA, no inverstigation into the US attorney firings and no change in executive privilege or signing statements. But we will get US torture laws firmed up and Guantanamo closed.  Ther government is comfortable with rendition to the most heinous locations around the world where other countries will torture without limitations whatsoever. Just like Blackwater they operate free of government sanction or connection.  That's Obama transparency. Electing a black man was symbolic only. They think it was a shrewd move to get dumbdown America to buy into 'changeling' president.

by Patrick Lafferty (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 557 comments [316 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 12:37:58 PM

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but what is the point of that?  we are STUCK with this right now...  We are stuck with a president who, as a senator, voted for a lot of this, or did nothing to oppose it.

So I will simply say this..

 The answer to corrupt government policy is NOT more corrupt government.

Ciao, CZ

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:15:01 PM

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Every year four millions human beings are abducted and sold into slavery. Since our Navy is always on patrol, they could intercept many slave trade vessels. Our Army could check trucks coming into Europe, for example. It would give our kids something else to do more productive than torture.

A change from selling heroin in Europe, the CIA could check out brothels for sex slaves. Instead of selling our nuclear secrets to the Pakistanis, the FBI can ransom slave girls from the Sudanese.

There are less than 18,000 slaves imported into the USA every year. The Senators wouldn't mind losing this revenue.

by Jason Paz (68 articles, 88 quicklinks, 112 diaries, 1386 comments [97 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:01:29 PM

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... slave trade are the ones perpetuating it. You must understand that the things you're asking our government to stop are the very things they condone, all of the worst crimes against humanity could not possibly be carried out without complete complicity of the governments.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:40:54 PM

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Obama is  a constitutional scholar. Isn't that what we've heard over and over and over ad nauseum?  By jiminy ! He will investigate and prosecute the war cirminals to the fullest extent of the law just as any fine upstanding consitutional scholar would do!!!!  ... right?  no really . right??  Can I get an Amen, sister?

   ...... nevermind......

by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 6:55:53 PM

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BPDS battered Progressive Democrat Syndrome is alive and well.

A stubborn and pervasive condition, fueled by rampant denial and complete cowardice.

Do you know of any, who suffer from this horrible condition? Have them contact the BPDS hot-line I-800-.NO COWARDS.  There they can talk to Cynthia McKinney, who was a former sufferer.

Beat BPDS now, before you become a suffer too.

by Michael Cavlan (15 articles, 0 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 538 comments [131 recommended, 2 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 7:10:41 PM

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If nothing is done, as was with Nixon, then this country should march on DC. Yah, I know, we that would do it are old but we can drive there and march a short distance. Because we let Nixon off the hook, we had another crook see NOTHING would be done no matter what he did. Cheney even brags about torture at Gitmo. If we or Obama do nothing, then we deserve another crook in office but this time he will probably practice on American. Bush practiced on the world then changed laws to support doing it to Americans and removing all our rights. You guys can write all day how you feel and you will be just as guilty as those that are ignoring all the illegal activities of the White House

by sandy valencour (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 38 comments [11 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:20:25 PM

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You're right. But many marches on D.C. and indeed all over the country have taken place in the past 8 years.  The msm doesn't cover it.  Or underestimates the numbers when they do report on it. 

 The Iraq war protest in 03 was HUGE.  I was there marching in Philly.  There was a countrywide worldwide protest.  How much coverage did it get? Nowhere near what the marches in the 60's got.   There have been numerous protests since and they've gotten scant coverage.  If it's not on tv, it didn't happen.

Problem is, the press is state controlled.  Unless nearly every citizen calls out sick from work and goes with us, and that's what I've been trying to encourage, it won't matter.   We need a general strike of huge proportions to get everyone's attention.  But with the Obama trance the country is in, I can't it happening.

by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:30:31 AM

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by Munich (1 articles, 86 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 1125 comments [86 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 8:36:54 PM

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Colin Powell already set us up for a crisis that he said "will happen on the 21st or 22nd, that we "don't even know about".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLPOeQZdHYw

Gee, Colin, if you know when it's going to happen, you must know what is going to happen, so being the truthful, upstanding American you were when you lied us into a war, why don't you tell us so we can prepare?

What's that? Not your job? Wasn't told to say anymore than you did?

Oh ... oh well, than, go cheney yourself, you scum-bag, My-Lia Massacre, 9/11 cover-up, NWO piece of maggot vomit.

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:57:20 PM

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I suppose because I am at times passive/aggressive in a mindful strategy/desired outcome kinda way -- I have imagined the following responses might offer a sense of satifaction while also making a point:

To whit:

Turn UP the Volume -- A massive "Door-Slam", "Kettle-Bashing", "Car-Horn Honking", "Telephones Ringing" show of DISDAIN for present circumstances.  Say at 9:11 on a pre-determined day.  Hearing the ECHO of sympathetic "Voices" across towns, and the nation might prove very gratifying >  Rinse & Repeat of course, for fabulously profound decibel levels.

Perhaps an encore:

Mass Flashing!  Choose a suitably significant time slot, tied to a clear message of DISDAIN & REVOLUTION, and all "in the know" and "so moved" should commence to turn on the Flashers of their motor vehicle, safely slow down, stop and "Pause"...for some moments of reflection.  Blaring of Horns, Shouting, Hand and Banner Waving, General Noise-Making and Mayhem all are to be encouraged.  Stopping of Commerce and Travel by the masses should be considered a Success!

Some might construe this as childish -- but I'd say -- "SO?"

Hearing the harmony of reactions of other folks who "Are Sick of This, and Won't Take It Anymore!" could lead to more dramatic protests of probable significant import.  What do you people think?

by boomerang (0 articles, 7 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 557 comments [215 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Monday, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:43:06 PM

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"What do you people think?" -Boomer

I say we dress up like Indians and go dump the damned tea into the bay!

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 2:46:12 AM

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I'm for both your ideas.  Let's figure out which way to go and start sending out emails!

by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:31:36 AM

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Congress is where the cowards are. If we hit them they cry. Uncle Obama, help us! We stopped McCain/Kennedy amnesty bill.  We all need to get out of our comfort zones and take one on the chin for the cause. Phone calls and faxes will shut them down. Blow thier switchboard.

I'd like to get Blackwater and Wackenhut fascists out of our neighborhoods as well. Let's take a day off on a Monday in February and jam Ma Bell.

by Patrick Lafferty (10 articles, 0 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 557 comments [316 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2009 at 8:41:29 PM

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