I may be wrong here but, do I understand what your saying due to the fact that I heard it last night on the propaganda machine CSPAN?

Think about this, say that Florida attacked Georgia (Atlanta Georgia).  They did this because someone on the Georgia side threw a stone and hit a Floridian in the head drawing blood.

Would it be wrong for Florida to fight back and persecute the individual (s) for this attack on the Floridian?

What if Georgia did this because china sold them the rocks and London trained them how to throw them with accuracy.

This may seem very far fetched but if you think that Georgia (neocon puppet country) is innocent or that Russia has an ulterior motive, you may be wrong or you may be right.

The important issue here is that the US is trying to encircle Russia and force them into a corner. Had this happened here in the US, we would have done the same thing.  I think they call it kill or be killed.

We are facing a global crises promulgated by the Neocon/Israeli led criminal government within the US.  Had we been the non-interventionist country that we should be, none of this would be going on and that's all there is to it.

There is no taming the Bear here.  They have awoken a sleeping giant and if the neocons and their agenda goes forward, there will be a lot of blood on their hands!!

by Hal Smith (4 articles, 1 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 67 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:37:58 PM

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No doubt about it.  Cheney and Bush and their other neocon friends have poked the Bear once too many. That's our side of the problem. My essay was to better explain the Russian side of the provocation. They are not innocent. The Chechnya situation is a good example of this.  If Russia were interested in Ossetians they would have granted the North Ossetians autonomy and urged them to join up with the South Ossetians.  They cannot possibly do this without upsetting all the minorities and ethnicities within their own borders.  Instead they play with ethnicities inside Georgia and the Ukraine and Moldova and somewhat inside the old republics of central Asia, stoking discontent and driving wedges between ethnicities and their "home" republic nations.

Finally, I guess we have to say that Pres. Saakashvili, despite his education in the U.S., is something of an idiot for pressing his claims on S. Ossetia with an army.  Sounds like the Israeli and American advisors got him stoked and he went off half cocked.

Thanks for your comment.

JB

by James Brett (131 articles, 96 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 190 comments [18 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:50:18 PM

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Half- truth is worse than lie sometimes. As if  you don't know about the 1994  Control Commision  agreement signed by Russia, Georgia and both  Ossetias  explicitly prohibiting the very use of force Georgia  exercized?  As if you do not know that  maybe the Soviet Parliament was a fraud but internationalism of the people there was real?  As if you do not know that  Georgians actually enjoyed even special sympathies in the Soviet period because of being the same religion as Russians? Yes, it mattered then too. As if you do not know about the referendum of 1991 ( ignored by Yeltzin)  which stated that the majority of the people from the USSR DID NOT WANT TO DISSOLUTE.

Mr. Brett, in that particular case Russia acted perfectly and properly. It is exaclty that what enrages Bush.

Gorby surey is to blame for his helplessness and stupidity when he was at power. But only for that. 

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4103 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 at 6:52:37 PM

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Half truths in the U.S. are quite different from the half truths of your native land, Mr. Sashine.  What you call my half truth is in fact nothing more than restricting the scope of my essay to the message of Mr. Gorbachev, which I disagree with for factual historical reasons, reasons which, btw, involve the complicity of Mr. Gorbachev in the conduct of the Soviet regime ... of course!

My point, which you take to be an assault on the reputation of the Russian people and its current and former governments, is simply this: Russia is not innocent in the Caucasus. It is disingenuous for a man -- whom I have always respected for his willingness to reform the rotten collosus of the Soviet Union -- to assert that modern day Russia is innocent.

You and other readers should take note that in the penultimate paragraph of my little essay, I assert that there is plenty of blame to go around. I am saying, still, that any attempt to claim that Georgia is wholly to blame for the incident ignores major historical truths, contemporary activities of the new Russia, and the perfidy of Vladimir Putin.  Having said that, I will be quick to REASSERT that Cheney and Bush are heavily to blame for stoking Saakashvili to his ill-considered attempt to eliminate the provocation in South Ossetia.

JB

by James Brett (131 articles, 96 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 190 comments [18 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 at 7:38:23 PM

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http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/19/rice/index.html

but  it is irrelevant.  As a matter of fact when I make  estimates and  evaluations I think like an American. So I prefer 'Mr'.  I surely can appreciate the logic but then it simply states that on  that August day   Georgian troops attacked with  ferocity  the small  disputed territory viloating the 1994 agreement between the parties involved. If the Russian troops on that territory  did not respond there would be  not only more casualties but   Ossetia would be smashed and Ossetins and Russian living there would become refugees. That simple. Our Bush would have  praised the event and surely UN would  NOT  do a thing. The US  missiles and US troops would be in Poti within hours.  That was a scenario and you know  it was  planned that way.  It happened before. Now, the Russian troops  did react, they did push back and, guess what- they did what any country does in war- they  efffectively destroyed the source of agression. Good for them. If  that was here, someone, say  attack Puerto- Rico, we would do the same and even worse. ALL aspects: rightfullness, security, safety, power, military practicism- were on the Russian side. Thus in this particular case   they were absolutely right. All other historical things are the elements of the sidebar.  As a matter of fact, Georgians as people  are highly revered in Russia and vice- versa. They are ceratinly revered there much higher than in the US where most of the people are totally clueless. Saakashvili does not speak for anyone but Condi.  You  have been a student of Russian history? It does seem that  you fall into the same trap as many of  such kind I met here: you only like what you want to like. As soon as Gorby says something you don't anticipate him to say, you  get upset.  Then you  become ' balanced' and say that  everyone is to blame.  With all respect, we are not assigning any blame here.  We mourn. Due to stupid and murderous attack on the civilian city in Ossetia thousands  died and that triggered more deaths.  We here should repent and be happy that  Russian troops showed restrain.  Not like we did in Iraq.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4103 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:24:41 AM

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This is dead wrong:

'The South Ossetian situation was not Russia's to solve because it was a disagreement in a now separate and sovereign state. Moreover, Georgia was not interested in staying in orbit around Moscow, so it opened to the west. This, of course, irritated Moscow and so since 1991 Russia has been slowly but surely cultivating the separatist emotions of the Abkhasians, South Ossetions (but not the North Ossetians) thus to create problems for Georgia.

Gorbachev is wrong that Russia is innocent. He is dead wrong. Russia is behind the problems that Georgia had hoped to fix by negotiations, but was thwarted by Russian strength buoying up the South Ossetians delusion that they were a viable country, an ethnic group that has never been a sovereign nation.

On the other side, the Cheney-Bush doctrine of stoking up a new cold war to feed the military-industrial complex is fully to blame for President Saakashvili's truculent incursion into South Ossetia. There is plenty of blame to go around, you see.

Gorbachev is merely echoing the Russian jingoist mantra. He sees Georgia as part of the empire and certainly Ossetia as part of Russia, not part of Georgia. His beliefs are not warranted by the facts!'

============================================

All i learn from this fellow is that he hates Russia. Isnt he aware of the despotic nature of Georgias current president?

Here is what Brett is NOT telling us:

The reality of political life in Georgia is far different than the media image.

Only last November, in the midst of mounting protests against his regime, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili employed dictatorial methods against his opponents. On November 2, opposition demonstrations began in Tbilisi, demanding democratic reforms and the ouster of Saakashvili. These protests, while organized by billionaire media tycoon Badri Patarkatsishvili, gave vent to grievances against government repression and the desperate living conditions of the population. They attracted tens of thousands to the streets of Georgia’s capital city.

The demonstrations continued until November 7, when the state police, acting on orders from Saakashvili, used tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons and truncheons to disperse the protesters. More than 600 required medical attention after the crackdown. On the same day, Special Forces raided Patarkatsishvili’s broadcasting corporation Imeldi, beating journalists and disabling equipment.

Saakashvili declared a state of emergency, suspending democratic rights such as freedom of expression and assembly. Independent broadcasting was halted even before the state of emergency was declared, and only the state-controlled television station was allowed to broadcast for a period of fifteen days. Imeldi was taken off the air indefinitely.

During the crackdown, Saakashivli called for snap elections to be held less than two months later, on January 5. The elections, held under conditions of political intimidation and repression, placed the opposition at an enormous disadvantage.

All media were under the de facto control of Saakashivli. In addition, two opposition leaders, Konstantin Gamsakhurdia and Shalva Natelashvili, were declared “wanted for treason.” The government accused them of conspiring with Russia to overthrow the government.

Patarkatsishvili, who likewise faced a government investigation for allegedly plotting to overthrow the government, began his campaign from Israel. He withdrew from the elections after the government released a recording of him attempting to bribe a police officer.

Patarkatsishvili died suddenly last February in London at the age of 52. Authorities attributed the death to a massive heart attack, but Patarkatsishvili believed the Georgian authorities were targeting him for assassination.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/aug2008/saak-a18.shtml

SO why is Brett, a freedom loving american liberal defending a georgian despot? 

Just as Georgia wanted to be independent of Russia, so South Ossetia ahs wanted to be independent of Georgia. NOTE: the South Ossetians fled to RUSSIA NOT to Georgia! That should tell Brett something about the conflict, and how Gorbachev not Brett is right.

by brian (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 152 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 at 7:20:19 PM

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Brian, I am sure you are enjoying commenting on essays presented here at OpEdNews.  I have no idea whether your assertions are correct or not. I do not accept, however, the veracity of the World Socialist Web in these matters, and believe me, I have much more experience than you in interpretation of socialist writing and attempts at journalism ... or even outright propaganda.

I was not writing about Saakashvili or his government. If you missed that essential point, I am sorry. My experience with students is that you brought more into the discussion than you have let on. No matter, you have identified your position.

I neither love nor hate Russia. Likewise Georgia.  I have been a student of Russian History for many years. I have great respect for Mikhail Gorbachev and consider him a friend of liberty and of justice. I am surprised that he is taking this position, both in the NYT and the Washington Post a day or so ago. It is an untenable position and strangely out of character, I think.

JB

by James Brett (131 articles, 96 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 190 comments [18 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Aug 20, 2008 at 7:53:24 PM

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If the South Ossetians want to be an independent territory then thats their right.

by Ty (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 888 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Aug 21, 2008 at 12:32:07 PM

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Russia had peace keeping force in Ossetia. The idea of having a peace keeping force is that neither side can practice genocide without hitting the peace keepers, while the peace keepers, not having heavy arms, cannot be a military threat to either side. Georgia decided to quit understanding that.

Georgia attacked Russian peace keepers, killed at least 1,500 Ossetian civilians, and turned the Ossetian capital Tschinvaly into ruins. Russia could either let all its peace keepers die and leave Ossetians to their own devices, or retaliate with whatever military force it had left. Russia opted to protect its people from an aggressor. NO COUNTRY CAN BE BLAMED FOR THAT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Russia did not escalate the war immediately. Georgia had all the options to withdraw its troops and stop the conflict. In this case 1,500+ human lives and 1 city would have been traded for one blow to the ego of Mr. Saakashvili. Georgia opted to continue military operations until its elite force and some infrastructure facilities were destroyed.

Russia is not innocent since it, together with other countries including USA, contributed to the situation when genocide is an option. However, in the recent events Russia is not an aggressor, it restrained from excessive violence (Tbilisi still exists, Mr. Saakashvili is alive, even the planes that carried Georgian reinforcements from Iraq returned to their bases), and prevented another military operation Georgia planned in Abhasia, the second run away Georgian territory. More so, Russia protected Georgian people from retaliation, which Georgians considered to be imminent (that's what they would do if they were Ossetians) and ran away en masse. I would call this behavior exceptionally wise and Russia deserves respect and positive feedback for that.

Needless to say the picture presented by the Western media and politicians, especially the US ones, is a bit different. Fake photoshop imagery, footage of Georgian fire being called Russian, calling Russia the aggressor, parallels with the invasion of the Soviet Union into Czechoslovakia (Czechs themselves called such parallels unjustified), all the ordinary information war stuff, you know. The problem is that the double standards have been stretched to the point when Russian people start to believe that ANYTHING Russia does to protect its interests, legitimate or not, anything but the obedience to direct orders from the West will be called aggression, imperialism, lack of democracy, whatever.

This effectively eliminates any effect that the public opinion in the West may have on the Russian actions. This is bad for Russia and bad for the West. Why, you ask yourself, would a person like Gorbachev squander his goodwill in the west with a screed like this? Possibly because that is bad enough for Mr. Gorbachev to speak out.

Russia is not innocent in the Caucasus, but in the present situation it is being treated wrong.

by Andrey Gerasimenko (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 31 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Aug 21, 2008 at 5:21:11 PM

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We can blather on forever about who did what to who but in the end it boils down to "Its the money, stupid!"  For some time the war profiteers in the U.S. have seen that the so-called "War on Terror" was becoming a huge bore for the American people and there was a growing resistance to giving up gigantic amounts of treasure without new justification.  So......we have to have a new boogie man to scare ignorant people into coughing up the cash.

To do this, the U.S. (with its sheep like NATO allies) has attempted to intimidate and humiliate Russia into taking a combative stance.  People here easily fear Russia because they still have a hangover from the phony cold war era when we were sure that there was an evil "Commie" hiding in every closet.  Since Yeltsin trashed the Russian economy and Putin attempted to regain some discipline by reclaiming national resources from the oligarchs who stole them, Russia has not been menacing other countries but rather putting its own business dealings in order.  They have been aggressive energy suppliers but have not imposed themselves militarily nor have they threatened to do so.

Now, the U.S. and NATO has encircled them with alliances from the Baltic to the Black Sea and plans are made for further NATO expansion to the East.  When Moscow advocated for its Serbian friends in regard to having Kosovo remain an autonomous region, like South Ossetia and Abkhazia, they were rebuffed and disrespected.  When Russia objected to the citing of missles in Poland and radar in the Czeck Republic, their protests were dismissed as paranoia.  (How would the U.S. react if Russia cited missles on the Mexican border near Nogales or Juarez?)  Then, to top things off, there we are sending advisors to train the Georgian military, selling the Georgians advanced weaponry and preparing to take  them into NATO.

There were obvious indications that Georgia was going to make a strike against South Ossetia.  Why else was Russia poised and ready to cross the border and take  control .  So Putin thinks he has had his chance to humiliate the U.S. by having his way with our ally.  What he has also accomplished is to show military menace and that also makes the war profiteers happy.  Hell, John McCain already jumped 5% in the polls.

by Bryan Emmel (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 425 comments [32 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Aug 22, 2008 at 4:50:58 AM

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