R.K.: Oh I just wrote down the word.
K.F.: I think I might have to skip that one. It's missing a bit of context. There's an awful lot of callousness within civilization but it's a bit difficult to talk about just one word.
R.K.: Okay, I guess I resonated with it because there is a collection of people doing research on sociopaths.
K.F.: Right. I see where you're getting at. Okay.
R.K.: Callousness is a characteristic that is coming up more and more in the research on sociopaths.
K.F.: Well callousness, a callous is something that is a hardening of the skin, it's a protection against damage. It is, it's a very good word because it describes a mental state that you need to be in, so that you can ignore the harm you're doing. So yes, sociopaths, psychopaths, they are callous. They have that hardening. They're hardened against other people's emotions. They're hardened against the damage that they do.
It is impossible to cause destruction unless you are immune to that pain that you cause and I don't believe that anyone who consciously causes great pain, that consciously has great power over, for instance, a mechanism by which a forest can be reduced to scraps of timber and then replanted with a cash crop. I can't believe that they are human. I can't believe that they are the type of person that you would ever want to be associated with. They are a product of industrial civilization.
This mentality of complete, it's a complete ignorance. It's a complete washing away of any emotion and that is a state which no human should wish to be in.
R.K.: Well I will say that for probably a hundred fifty, two hundred years people who called themselves anthropologists or who studied ancient humans characterized them as brutish savages. Living in brutish survival mode and the fact is that now we know with research with the San Bushmen and other indigenous people like you said, they only work two or three hours a day. They are the truly wealthy people.
R.K.: They have very little, but that's the kind of wealth that is a very different definition. And what you just described, the kind of person who perpetuates the kind of things that you describe, those people are the brutes. They are the brutes of civilization.
K.F.: And wasn't this idea, this brutal savage, this dark-skinned alien creature that was less than human, wasn't that an incredibly powerful form of public relations on behalf of the industrial machine? It allowed people to feel okay about exploiting, about slavery, about taking away everything these people had because they weren't human anymore. They were de-humanized by the popular idea of this brutish savage.
They wouldn't feel if you took, they were just animals and that kind of thing is going on constantly with these foreigners, these people who are less than human. Oh it's okay, we can exploit them, they can make our things for us. They don't feel as much as we do. This is another product of civilization and it's right at the beginning. It's one of those ideas that if you want to exploit you have to de-humanize first and we all have to remember that. We really have to remember what we've done.
R.K.: Yes. So I've got a couple more things to just throw out. Undermining online. What are some ideas on how people can undermine online?
K.F.: Okay. It's a funny one this because undermining obviously, the ultimate aim of it is to remove this online existence but you can do a lot of things online to undermine. There are a few ideas, what they need to do is target the things that people have become dependent on online, so for instance, Wikipedia, it's seen as the, it's now pretty much seen as a statement of fact.
What appears in Wikipedia, that's the way things are. Of course that's framed in civilized terms but I don't have a problem with the information necessarily that's on there, what I do have a problem with is the way it's used and if you can, for instance make it so that people see the real information, the truth behind what a company does, what a politician does, what a media organization does, carefully change that information so that people are regularly seeing it and the messages are coming through.