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May 24, 2007 at 20:33:07

Passing judgment on HR 811: A classic case of "the blind men and the elephant"

by David Griscom     Page 2 of 2 page(s)

http://www.opednews.com


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I have regarded this duplicity as further damning evidence that Congress has no intention of ever refusing to seat the winner of the “official” (machine-counted) Election-Day tally, no matter what the evidence that a majority of “We the People” actually voted for his/her opponent. But then I took a closer look at HR 811...

Whereas there is no PRESENT law requiring Congress to defer to post-election audits, look at what HR 811 actually MANDATES: “...each State shall administer, without advance notice to the precincts selected, audits of the results of elections for Federal office held in the State...consisting of random hand counts of the voter-verified paper ballots required to be produced and preserved...”

And for those of us who have been holding out for a return to publicly witnessed citizen hand counting of paper ballots, HR 811 specifies: “In administering the audits, the Election Auditor may utilize the services of election administration personnel of the State or jurisdiction, including poll workers, without regard to whether or not the personnel have professional auditing experience.” And that “EACH AUDIT...SHALL BE CONDUCTED IN A MANNER THAT ALLOWS PUBLIC OBSERVATION OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS [capitalization my own].”

And contradicting my former worries that such audits would have no “teeth,” HR 811 specifies that “No State may certify the results of any election which is subject to an audit...prior to... the completion of the audit.” “If the Election Auditor finds that any of the hand counts administered...do not match the final unofficial tally of the results of an election, the Election Auditor shall administer hand counts...of such additional precincts (or equivalent jurisdictions) as the Election Auditor considers appropriate to resolve any concerns resulting from the audit and ensure the accuracy of the results.”

And finally: “DEADLINE FOR COMPLETION OF AUDITS OF PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS - In the case of an election for electors for President and Vice President which is subject to an audit..., the State shall complete the audits and announce and submit the results to the Commission for publication of the information required...in time for the State to certify the results of the election and provide for the final determination of any controversy or contest concerning the appointment of such electors prior to the deadline described in section 6 of title 3, United States Code.”

These mandates (plus the very important one of requiring publicly witnessed random selection of the precincts to be audited) are exactly what is needed to expose the type of election fraud perpetrated against optical-scan voting devices in 2004 (http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_michael__070313_the_long_road_to_dem.htm)

I will end with expressing my high respect for my fellow election-integrity activists who have come down against HR 811. Mark Crispin Miller, for example, opposes HR 811 basically for reasons (1) through (3) above, calling it a “poison pill” (http://markcrispinmiller.blogspot.com/2007/05/holt-bill-is-poison-pill_22.html).
I agree with MCM that ALL electronic voting machines must be banned as soon as possible – but I sincerely doubt that will happen very soon. I disagree with him that the non-disclosure of election software codified in HR 811 is a big deal, because it is possible to embed a self-erasing Election-Day vote-flipping program even into open-source software. So there are only two defenses against electronic election hacking: (i) get rid of all electronic voting machines (including op-scanners) or (ii) institute transparent-to-the-public audits of the voter-verified paper ballots. To repeat, HR 811 actually mandates that “The individual, durable voter-verified paper ballot...shall be used as the OFFICIAL BALLOT [my emphasis] for purposes of any recount or audit conducted ... and shall be preserved.”

To me, HR 811 sets the stage for returning to what we all want the most, that is, publicly witnessed hand counting of our hand-marked paper ballots. Under the HR-811-mandated audits, citizens would actually begin to acquire these skills – and before 2008! After reading the fine print of the Holt bill, I am convinced that I couldn’t have designed a better system for catching election fraud if I had tried. Ph.D. electrical engineer and voting technology expert Tom Ryan (http://www.ewh.ieee.org/r6/tucson/beeet04-04.pdf) came to this conclusion long before I did.

Tom and I believe that the real “poison pill” in HR 811 targets the hackers who would steal our elections. Please do call your Congressperson today and tell him/her what YOU believe!

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David L. Griscom, a Fellow of the American Physical Society, retired in 2001 from the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, where he had been a research physicist for 33 years. He has subsequently held visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris, Lyon, and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology; he was also Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at The University of Arizona in Tucson. By virtue of his collaboration with John Brakey in an investigation of poll-worker fraud in Tucson, Griscom was an invited presenter at both the National Election Reform Conference (Nashville, April 2005) and the Election Assessment Hearing (Houston, June 2005), as well as the 2007 Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (San Francisco, February 2007). He is a Coordinator of the Election Defense Alliance.

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Founder of the NC Coalition for Verified Voting.We passed a law to require VVPB on August 2005 after years of work. NC Coalition for Verified Voting is an all volunteer organization that does not solicit or accept donations.
ncvoterFounder of the NC Coalition for Verified Voting.We passed a law to require VVPB on August 2005 after years of work. NC Coalition for Verified Voting is an all volunteer organization that does not solicit or accept donations.

do what we can now for Nov 08 little time left

Whether you use hand counted paper ballots, optical scanners or DRE/touchscreens, its all about the audits. And the threat of audits.

Hand Counted paper ballots are an admirable, secondary, long term goal that will take years.

Doing everything we can to protect the Nov 08 election as best as we can is essential.

Less than 1% of our country even uses HCPB, and back in 1980, about 10% were using it.

People say - but it only takes 3 hours to count all of Canada's elections, surely we can do that.  But - Canada only counts one contest. 

We would need to reduce the number of contests on our ballots (currently from 25-55 in average General Election), hold elections more frequently to adjust for that smaller ballot, and find a way to obtain poll workers more frequently. It takes time to lobby for such dramatic change, and we don't have that kind of time right now.

 See what HCPB look like in Australia, Canada, Germany, Iraq, Mexico, UK and Russia.

by ncvoter (8 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 93 comments) on Friday, May 25, 2007 at 1:48:04 AM
 


Born in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.
Chuck GarnerBorn in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.

Not only "blind", but deaf and dumb as well.

All over the world people are waking up to the fact that electronic voting machines can be subverted. And, all over the world there are apologists for the electronic voting machine industry throwing up straw men as to why this insane practice should be continued. But there are at least three things that cannot be brushed aside; 1. the accuracy of hand counted ballots is unquestionably the best of all tabulating methods. 2. when the ballots are counted in plain view of the voters at the precinct level, the degree of trust is much higher. 3. Should there be any question of the results, not only are the ballots available at each precinct, but it would be impossible rig an election unless more than one precinct were involved. This is the way it's been done for hundreds of years, and while computers are good for many things, tabulating ballots isn't one of them. These are simple concepts, so please stop pushing an already questionable technology. Our vote is our only weapon to fight against the machine. 

by Chuck Garner (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 118 comments) on Friday, May 25, 2007 at 10:22:15 AM
 


Michael Collins is a writer who focuses on clean elections and voting rights. See this summary of his articles plus Election 2004: The Urban Legend and groundbreaking research and commentary in "" His web site, Election Fraud News & The Money Party, offers a collection of resources and commentary on critical issues facing the country.
Michael CollinsMichael Collins is a writer who focuses on clean elections and voting rights. See this summary of his articles plus Election 2004: The Urban Legend and groundbreaking research and commentary in "" His web site, Election Fraud News & The Money Party, offers a collection of resources and commentary on critical issues facing the country.

Excellent!!! Elephant is indeed a mighty creature.

This is first rate analysis, worthy of being read by many. The consequences include secret vote counting, the enemy of the people's will, as we know. Keep the system complex so competing experts duke it out and the public is disaffected. What an achievement.

Here is a point I don't often here discussed, and it's very important.

1) If the bill passes it will be vetoed.

2) If that happens, then we will need Republican votes to override.

3) Even the Republican co-sponsors will not go against Bush on a veto override.

4) Therefore, the entire effort is a giant waste of time, a diversion.

Why isn't Congress holding hard hitting inquiries on the e-voting companies?

Why isn't Congress holding hearings on security issues?

Why isn't Congress holding hearings on the anomalies galore in Ohio that have come to fore regarding 2004 and 2006?

You build a case for reform by showing that which is in need of reform.

Why are we not doing that?

Note:  I'm very much in favor of Congress passing get out of Iraq legislation, drug pricing controls, environmental protections, even though they'll be vetoed.  Those have tactical value - they are well known issues, easy to understand.  The process of passing, rejection, and fighting are intrinsically valuable. But there is little value in passing and then seeing vetoed legislation that the public doesn't even know about when Congress hasn't bothered to define the issues in terms that they really crave on this issue, the lousy machines, the people who make them, voter suppression, etc. 

by Michael Collins (81 articles, 11 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 289 comments) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 3:16:11 AM
 


Born in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.
Chuck GarnerBorn in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.

Why would it be vetoed?

This bill would guarantee Republican victories forever. Bush would have to be plumb crazy (you know what I mean) to hurt the Republican party in this manner, so there's not the slightest danger of that happening. If you're being facetious, which I suspect you are, it's not coming through all that clearly and I know you can write better than that, having read your articles for years. Now that Bush has created a law where he can declare himself dictator in the event of an emergency, real or concocted, maybe he has no need to worry about the provisions of H.R. 811, whatever they may be. They won't cramp the style of the "Illegal Invasion and Occupation President".

by Chuck Garner (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 118 comments) on Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 11:36:50 PM
 


Michael Collins is a writer who focuses on clean elections and voting rights. See this summary of his articles plus Election 2004: The Urban Legend and groundbreaking research and commentary in "" His web site, Election Fraud News & The Money Party, offers a collection of resources and commentary on critical issues facing the country.
Michael CollinsMichael Collins is a writer who focuses on clean elections and voting rights. See this summary of his articles plus Election 2004: The Urban Legend and groundbreaking research and commentary in "" His web site, Election Fraud News & The Money Party, offers a collection of resources and commentary on critical issues facing the country.

diogenes, Forgive my incomplete argument

Reading my articles for years, thank you.  You're right, there's a 4th point which is, elsewhere,

4.  If Bush does sign Holt then those who proposed it are participating in a collaborative effort with the titular head of the faction that introduced unvarnished tyranny into our system.   Some partnership, some protection.

by Michael Collins (81 articles, 11 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 289 comments) on Thursday, May 31, 2007 at 11:24:02 PM
 


David L. Griscom, a Fellow of the American Physical Society, retired in 2001 from the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, where he had been a research physicist for 33 years. He has subsequently held visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris, Lyon, and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology; he was also Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at The University of Arizona in Tucson. By virtue of his collaboration with John Brakey ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

David GriscomDavid L. Griscom, a Fellow of the American Physical Society, retired in 2001 from the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, where he had been a research physicist for 33 years. He has subsequently held visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris, Lyon, and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology; he was also Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at The University of Arizona in Tucson. By virtue of his collaboration with John Brakey ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Good observation, Chuck!

It really was a 180 degree turn around! As I explain in this column, I was initially swayed by the parts of the elephant touted by others whom I trusted and greatly admired. Thus, when I started writing this column -- which, as you see, gives the "kill bill" arguments of the other side that swayed me the most -- I was certain that my conclusion would be the same as those of my estimed colleagues. Still, I am a scientist, and when I write scientific papers I always read everyone else's papers on the same or related subjects to make sure that my hypotheses are not contradicted by any known facts. Therefore, I finally realized that I had to read HR 811 line-by-line just to be sure I hadn't missed anything. And it turned out that I HAD missed something: a meticulously specified audit quite capable of detecting and defeating the type of fraud employed in the theft of the 2004 election. I could hardly believe it! I t was exactly the right defense against the kind of election fraud that I had a role in exposing! This left me agonizing over the fact that I would be "betraying" some very estimed colleagues in election-integrity activism if I decided to become a "turncoat." But I was intellectually convinced that my country would benefit from the passage if HR 811 and that it was my moral obligation to tell the truth as I saw it...

by David Griscom (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 23 comments) on Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 7:54:31 PM
 


Born in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.
Chuck GarnerBorn in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.

As Nancy Tobi has pointed out...

It isn't about the audits, or even the threat of audits. The only count that counts is the first one, and sometimes not even that is required to swear in a Republican Congressman, like Bilbray. Please address my three points, Dr. Griscom, that HCPB at the precinct level is still the most accurate means of tabulating the votes, and that the level of trust is much higher when the voters can not only watch the votes being counted, they can participate in the tabulation as well. In my California county of Lassen, the turnout gets lower every year, and the people in charge, all Republicans by an odd coincidence, can't figure out why that is- not a clue. Here's a hint: it's the use of hackable Diebold election machines, all well publicized as being made to produce whatever result the RoV wants, and I've been forbidden to write any more letters to the Lassen County Times on this subject. And thirdly, should there be a need for an audit or recount, the ballots are still stored at their respective precincts. And once again, please stop pushing your hackable voting machines. I was very concerned that maybe you had a visit at your home in Mexico from agents representing the electronic voting machine lobby, making you an offer you couldn't refuse. We're talking billions of dollars and the continued existence of a very profitable industry, Doctor, and my concern for you is very well founded. Please let us know that you're okay.

 

by Chuck Garner (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 118 comments) on Monday, May 28, 2007 at 9:34:36 PM
 


assistant professor of political studies at Bard College
Mark Lindemanassistant professor of political studies at Bard College

that's not "pointing out," that's asserting

Election outcomes can be and have been overturned following recounts. It simply isn't true that "[t]he only count that counts is the first one."

As for turnout in Lassen County, I see 7737 votes for governor in 2002, 8612 votes in 2006. There's no evidence here, or anywhere else that I've seen, that DREs (which I don't trust) have contributed to a turnout death spiral.

I actually think that Griscom somewhat overstated the benefits of the HR 811 audit, but I think his main point is solid: a large nationwide audit is very likely to catch widespread miscount. Why is that a bad thing?

 

by Mark Lindeman (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 3 comments) on Wednesday, May 30, 2007 at 2:17:47 PM
 


Born in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.
Chuck GarnerBorn in 1942 in NE Oklahoma, educated and raised in NE California, joined the Navy at 17 and was shipped to Yokosuka, Japan. There I was able to buy all the books that were banned in the USA. Married & divorced twice, AA degree in Lib. Arts. Now disabled w/ COPD, I live in the house that my mother left me and spend a lot of time on the computer and reading.

Several points, if I may.

1. AFAIK, we don't use DREs in Lassen County.

2. The recently retired RoV commented that the November '06 election turnout was the worst that that she had ever seen in 26 years.

3. "...a large nationwide audit..." is probably not "..a bad thing", but I never asserted that it was- in fact, I don't see that topic as having been addressed at all.

There's a huge - and growing daily- body of literature on this subject, but if I had to list only two, this is what they would be:

<a href="http://www.chuckherrin.com/archive.htm">Hack the Vote</a>

and the second one, for whatever reason, I'm unable to create a link to, so I recommend that the author be looked up in the writer's archives, listed under Novick, Andi and scrolling down to "A return to sanity- why we must eliminate computerized control of our election system: The story of the voting vendor vultures and the people who love them." It's a classic and gets linked to a lot (by people who know how to do it) but it's a good start. 

by Chuck Garner (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 118 comments) on Friday, June 1, 2007 at 12:28:17 PM
 


Founder of the NC Coalition for Verified Voting.We passed a law to require VVPB on August 2005 after years of work. NC Coalition for Verified Voting is an all volunteer organization that does not solicit or accept donations.
ncvoterFounder of the NC Coalition for Verified Voting.We passed a law to require VVPB on August 2005 after years of work. NC Coalition for Verified Voting is an all volunteer organization that does not solicit or accept donations.

Mexico and Nigera's failed hand counted elections

Hand Counted Paper Ballots are not a panacea.

Even with Hand Counted Paper Ballots, the Presidential election in Mexico was hotly contested. There were large protests and  leftist presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador asked for a ballot by ballot recount and refused to concede for some time.   The recent Hand Counted Paper Ballot election in Nigeria resulted in violence and criticisms of ballot box stuffing and fraud.
Nigeria's national police chief called for calm Sunday as he announced that preliminary figures showed 21 people were killed in violence during state ...

by ncvoter (8 articles, 1 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 93 comments) on Wednesday, June 6, 2007 at 1:02:27 PM
 


David L. Griscom, a Fellow of the American Physical Society, retired in 2001 from the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, where he had been a research physicist for 33 years. He has subsequently held visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris, Lyon, and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology; he was also Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at The University of Arizona in Tucson. By virtue of his collaboration with John Brakey ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

David GriscomDavid L. Griscom, a Fellow of the American Physical Society, retired in 2001 from the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, where he had been a research physicist for 33 years. He has subsequently held visiting professorships of research at the Universities of Paris, Lyon, and Saint-Etienne, France, and Tokyo Institute of Technology; he was also Adjunct Professor of Materials Science and Engineering at The University of Arizona in Tucson. By virtue of his collaboration with John Brakey ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Me, an "Agent Provocateur"?

First, please excuse the “silent treatment,” but the fact is I have a congenital aversion to blogging.  Every time I’ve tried it, it has seemed to lead nowhere, and I quickly lost interest in even checking for comments.  As you well know, Chuck, I spend many hours a day dicing intellectually with the heavyweights of the election-integrity community – most (but definitely not all) of whom disagree with me on HR 811 but still seem to respect me.

I’m only answering you this time because of your email to me stating that you would continue to regard me as a “paid agent provocateur” until I answer the three points you raised as “diogenes1.”  As near as I can make out from the context, your three points are:

(1) “...HCPB at the precinct level is still the most accurate means of tabulating the votes, and that”

(2) “...the level of trust is much higher when the voters can not only watch the votes being counted, they can participate in the tabulation as well.”

(3) “...should there be a need for an audit or recount, the ballots are still stored at their respective precincts.

Well, in fact, I agree with all three points.  No argument whatsoever.  As soon as your three points are part of a bill laid before Congress, I will support that bill with all my heart.

But the facts on the ground are that no matter what HAVA-amending laws Congress should pass in the next few months, the frigging Diebold (and other) hackable voting machines will still be out there, and likely in greater numbers, in 2008 and 2010.  And, as you suspect is true in Lassen County, my friends in Tucson have found evidence that the Pima County DoE may have been hacking the GEMS tabulator.

The difference is that my friends have brought both civil and criminal suits against the County!  See: <A href=www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/opinion/53903 >Tucson Citizen </A> 

It is a fact that the only means of combating computerized election theft in 2008 and 2010 are well designed audits.  The audit in the Holt bill is not the best possible, but pretty fair.  See: <A href=”electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paperaudits/ComparisonFederalElectionAuditProposals.pdf” >Election Audit Proposals </A> 

Meanwhile, my friend Tom Ryan just reminded me that the AZ State Legislature passed legislation over a year ago (SB1557) requiring a manual audit.  He also told me what I didn’t know, namely that SB1557 was applied in the 2006 elections at about 6 or 7 counties.  See: 

<A href=”azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/47leg/2r/bills/sb1557h.htm” >SB1557 </A>   This proves that audits are “doable,” though I confess that I have no knowledge of what they may have revealed.

by David Griscom (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 23 comments) on Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 12:04:25 PM
 


HOst, producer of Action Point with Cynthia Black, Air America affiliate, Nova M Radio network station 1480, KPHX
CLBHOst, producer of Action Point with Cynthia Black, Air America affiliate, Nova M Radio network station 1480, KPHX

Why Do You Want To Sell Out?

David, the elephant analogy sounding oh-so-commonsensical (and much like the now-discredited "boiling frog" analogy, dangerous when misapplied)-- I think grasping for a rational solution has caused you to lose your mind. Your degrees and experience notwithstanding (they don't confer you with extra-rational ability) the most obvious elephant in this room is the completely intact and easily identified one of software!

HR 811 states: " the voting system use or produce "an individual, durable, voter-verified paper ballot of the voter's vote" to be "used as the official ballot for purposes of any recount or audit."

The bold indications are mine. They indicate that there is no guarantee that the ballot produced is a correct reading of the ballot scanned!!!!!!!!

Hey. let's say I'm the Republican elephant in that room and all I have to do now is ensure the software hack creates the requisite number of BALLOTS that I know are ENSURED TO BE THE ONLY RECOUNTED ballots!!

And you know evidence suggests audits often aren't even undertaken--and in the mean time--the unelected sits in office?

Come on Dave, why do you want more and lengthier bad legislation by politicians, for politicians, instead of taking a stand for the right legislation for the people?

I'm aware of the political excuses, but the point of a grass-roots movement is to reach up from under politicians entrenched mindsets and into fresh air. As part of the larger populist movement I argue that we have a responsibility to fight the correct fight for our issue as we expect it from others (peace movement, health care, et al).

Why abdicate that responsibility and with it the opportunity to ensure the necessary underpinning to all reform is in place? You know in Arizona that thanks to EI investigations into election fraud, possible tampering with a regional transportation bill collecting millions in taxpayer dollars may have been uncovered. Elections aren't just about electing officials--they are about all policy! Maybe if EI advocates stop behaviorally apologizing for creating a ruckus citizens around them can begin to understand that elections include their bread-and-butter issues too. Perhaps we could get the needed support to tuen elections into a national debate!

If nothing else, the EI movement is the vanguard of democracy! How can you sell it--and therefore every other movement--so short?




by CLB (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 at 12:25:40 PM
 

 

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