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The US Need Not Inevitably Descend into Violent Chaos If and When Disaster Strikes

By       Message Dave Lindorff       (Page 1 of 2 pages)     Permalink    (# of views)   56 comments

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From en.m.wikipedia.org: File:Rent Strike, New York Times, 1919.JPG - Wikipedia800 Ã-- 598 - 233k -
Depression-era rent strike, an example of solidarity in a crisis
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By Dave Lindorff

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Liberal opponents of serious, aggressive action on climate change like California Governor Jerry Brown are the strange bedfellows of right-wing survivalists on one thing: Both are quick to warn darkly that if environmentalists have their way and imposestrict cuts on oil, gas and coal production or on mileage standards for automobiles and pollution controls on power plants, or in the case of right-wingers, if the banking system is allowed to continue to run US economic policy and the Fed isn't audited, the irate citizens of the US will descend into an orgy of anarchic violence and mayhem.

The argument is that if Americans are told they can no longer drive gas-guzzling automobiles and blast their air conditioners at will, or if the US financial system again collapses as it did in 2008 leading to the Great Recession, the people of this country will essentially go mad and a lawless chaos of dog-eat-dog, kill thy neighbor for his food, will ensue.

"It will be like the Great Depression all over," I read in one account of a recent report by one JP Morgan Chase analyst who is predicting a dramatic market crash of over 40% followed by armageddon. (I learned about this little report of impending disaster from a former cop friend who advised me to get a gun and plenty of ammo and to stock up on food to be able to protect my family.)

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But this is truly ignorance regarding what actually happened when everything did collapse back in the Great Depression and Dust Bowl.

It's true that a few despondent investors did leap from windows of tall buildings in lower Manhattan after the 1929 stock market collapse, but not all that many, and things continued fairly calmly after that as the economy began to seize up. After all, very few Americans were actually invested in the market. But even as the lay-offs, bank collapses, bankruptcies and home foreclosures began to mount, there was no revolution in the US.

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Dave Lindorff is a founding member of the collectively-owned, journalist-run online newspaper www.thiscantbehappening.net. He is a columnist for Counterpunch, is author of several recent books ("This Can't Be Happening! Resisting the (more...)
 

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Bill Johnson

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It has been planned for decades. Many want it. Many are looking forward to clearing the air on the streets of America.


To heck with need... more like has to be... many want it and will encourage it to happen on all sides.


Liberals are going to be in a fix when they sit at home hoping someone will save them as gangs of hundreds rampage through neighborhoods...


911 and police wont be there to answer the calls of gunless godless democrats. Good luck!

Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 6:22:56 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

How sad for you.


The truth is much better. People will raly together, share what they have, and fight for better governance. Cops will break down and join the people, who after all are their relatives. Soldiers, especially, will refuse to turn their guns on starving or jobless masses who are organized. In revolutionary moments, people come together, not at each other. That's how it's worked in the past, and how it will work in the future.


The rulers are the ones who will need protection when it all comes down. That's why they warn about chaos if they don't get their way. They're afraid the reaction won't be chaos, but vengeance.


Dave Lindorff

founding editor of ThisCantBeHappening.net


Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 6:54:29 PM

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Bill Johnson

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Sad for me? For simply making an observation? Hardly.


So you got it all figured out how it will work in the future? You are welcome to your opinion but it is just that- an opinion and you know what they say about those?


Truth is you don't have a clue.


When food runs out, gas runs out, lights go out... yeah, everyone will stick together like old friends! BS!


It will be for times like that when our 2nd amendment rights will count for something... some 300 million guns and over one trillion bullets spread out across America...


Yeah Dave, you don't have a clue.


Tell me, do you think the police will come when YOU call them?


Who is it? Dave Lindorff? The professional police hater? Click.

Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 7:18:17 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Me? I would NEVER call the cops, unless it was about a lost pet, and even then I'd think twice lest they shoot it to "catch' it.

Your love of guns betrays an enormous inferiority complex and self confidence. And your libeling of liberals as "godless" also betrays you as a rank right-winger. I can assure you that while I'm an athiest, most liberals are not. They are Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sihks, Muslims and a whose of religions you probably don't even know about. Why that should be relavent in terms of their deserving their fate in your dystopic future I don't know, but it shows you to be a fanatic gun nut and little more.

Putting your pathetic politics aside for a moment and talking to you as if you were a rational human being I'd point out, for example, that I have a lot of skills to offer -- which I would -- in a crisis -- electrical, carpentry, mechanics, etc. Others have their skills, whether medical, educational, horticultural, or whatever. People share and help. Folks like you apparently would steal and shoot to get what you want. See who lasts longer...

Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 7:32:10 PM

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jim smith

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Just out of curiosity, what would you do if you were a victim of a crime. Especially a violent crime.

Or if you had information that would help stop a crime. Or put a violent criminal back on the streets.


I get it. Some cops are bad. That is unfortunately true. However, some cops are good and honest and do protect society.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:41:49 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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It varies according to the situation. Obviously if I was a witness to a violent crime I would call law enforcement -- either the cops or the district attorney's office.


If I were a victim myself, or someone in my family, of course I'd call the cops. The problem with cops is when someone calls about a domestic fight or to complain about a noisy neighborhood party, or whatever.


I'll tell you an experience I had that shook me. When I lived in an apartment in NY, once evening my wife and I went out for dinner (my birthday). When we got home, I put the key in the door, opened it, and found it was chained on the inside. I heard footsteps, realized a burglar was inside, pulled the door closed and told my wife to go to the neighbors and call 911. The cops came quickly, pulled their guns, kicked the door in and went inside. The crook, who had broken in from the fire escape, had fled with our stuff. But I found a sneaker footprint on the open title page of my Columbia master's thesis. It was a little kid's shoe. I'm so thankful that kid got out, as he could have ended up dead.


Hence my caution now about calling cops.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:26:40 PM

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jim smith

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Just out of curiotisty, how do you know that the criminal was not armed. For all you know, because he escaped he went on and hurt and or killed an innocent person.

Just because he is was a kid does not mean he was not a hardened criminal.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:35:32 PM

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Right. Nice try. You're like the cops who always have the same excuse for killing kids ("I feared for my life."


The shoeprint was of a size that it would have had to be a kid of about the age of 8-9 years old. It's tiny. Clearly there's some adult schmuck who's hiring little kids who can break a window on a fire escape and squeeze around the edges of those accordion=like window guards people like us had. Either that or it was a circuis midget. No way that kid was packing. He was working too hard trying to fill and carry out two pillowcases filled with our stuff (one got left on my desk by the window in his haste to flee when I surprised him by trying to open the door).


No, he wasn't armed, but had he not been able to get out in time, he well could have been shot by the cops and I would have had that on my conscience forever. The kid was a Dickensian-era-like victim, not a perp in this case.


My wife and I are thankful he got away, even though he took my wife's prized childhood charm bracelet, which had collected some really nice gold charms given over years of birthdays from her grandparents.



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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Far point. I did not realize you estimated the kid age to be that young. I was thinking someone in his or her mid-teens.

Though a minor point, not all cops are maniacs with guns (though way too many follow that blue wall garbage which is why it is easy to paint them all with the same brush. I definitely agree we need accountability on cops.). I was not there, but there is no guarantee that the kid would of been killed by the cops.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:29:21 PM

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

Of course no guarantee, but such things happen -- two cops entering an apartment in the dark, guns drawn -- are quick to shoot. They even do it in the daytime. Think Cleveland. And kids get killed.


Nobody should die for a burglary. Even an adult. It's not a violent crime, and most who engage in it are hard luck cases.


It's a property crime.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 6:52:36 PM

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jim smith

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Actually burglary, breaking into someone home is a violent crime. People have been killed by burglars. It happens all of the time. It is much much more than a property crime. And while some who do it may be 'hard luck cases' many more are done by people who are selfish, cruel or evil. You just don't know, even with this kid who robbed you.

Of course I am not saying he should of been killed. I agree, cops need to be reeled in. But if It was me, I would of been very upset over the fact he got away. Not only for the lost of property and the violation but the fact that he could commit this crime to other people.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 8:27:39 PM

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

You've described your despicable right wing masturbatory fantasy; Something will happen that will unleash massive violence, perpetrated by right wing troglodytes who have guns. And that's why you and your kind want guns. So you can nightly engage in your violence-porn fantasies. I've seen this kind of thinking again and again on comment threads.


And it is clear. You even fantasize that the police will allow the violence, allow the crime, because they are with your side. But your thinking and your hopes are despicable. The thinking you proudly share is sick, depraved and insane.


The good news is that most people do not think like you or your kind. They, like me, will find your thinking, your hopes to be abhorrent, even monstrous. Yes. You have shown us that you are a monster. But here, you are a monster on display, so we can know your kind and how you think. So tell us more about how you hope the streets will run with liberal blood.

Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 7:33:57 PM

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Bill Johnson

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Reply to Rob Kall:   New Content

Rob you are trying to make this out to be about me and its not. And I won't accept the imaginative fiction you just wrote. Has nothing to do with me.


I merely share an observation based on reality and observation. Nothing more.


This is something that has been predicted for decades. My dad was on civil defense planning for such things with U.S. Army.


Fact is America is a powder keg ready to explode.


Just look at what the BLM did under obuma. It is not getting better. So it does seem that some want to get violent. I don't. I have kids.


I merely share observational opinion here and nothing more. None of this is about me. So let me show you that which you choose to deny:


How To Survive The Civil Unrest That's Coming To America


Not about me!



Will the United States experience civil unrest in 2018-2019?


Not about me!



Is the U.S. on the brink of civil unrest?




Not about me!


The U.S. Is in for Much Greater Civil Unrest Ahead


Not about me!


So as shown, my comments are merely observational. I have never personally advocated anything violent nor illegal.


Calling me a monster and all sorts of things is meaningless and irrelevant diversion from the discussion which apparently some can not stay on track.


I merely pointed out that there are people within this country who are wanting to fight and shoot it out. Is this true or not? I believe it is true.


And that makes me a monster and bad person? Nope. Not accepting this type of nonsense.


Dave said there was no need to get violent. Maybe he is right. I simply do not agree. If our history shows us anything it shows us that a violent past leads to a violent future as history repeats itself.


I'll be in the woods with my kids just trying to survive and keep us alive if it hits the fan out there as expected.



Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:06:39 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

I'm not saying there's no need to be violent. I'm saying it's unlikely to happen because what has happened in past truly major collapses (an nothing has touched the disaster of the 1930s), people didn't turn ON each other, they for the most part turned TO each other, joining unions, joining socialist parties, backing a Democratic Party that back acted for the good of the many and took on the oligarchs (what it should be doing today but won't unless forced to).


As you say, people have been predicting your violent eruption for decades and...hmm...it hasn't happened. That should tell you something right there. We just had a huge stock market collapse and soaring unemployment and epic foreclosures, and people didn't start killing each other.


Rob's right. Your first comment reeked of expectation for the liberals' comeuppance. Trouble is, for you, people on the left ((I don't mean rich liberals here -- I mean ordinary progressive working people like my neighbors) won't be sitting in their homes waiting for help, they'll be out helping their struggling neighbors. They'll be organizing marches demanding jobs. They'll be voting for candidates who will take action. When the sh*t really hits the fan, that's when progressive people will really come together and fight -- not with guns but with organizing.

They've done it before and they'll do it again.

Submitted on Tuesday, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:11:36 PM

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

Why not go to the woods and live off the land now? It will be good practice. You could still come to town and get supplies for making your own ammo, while stores are still open.

BTW, how's your daughter who you sent off to war to risk her life for large corporations doing? Please tell her thanks from me for defending my freedoms, even though I don't have a gun.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:54:48 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Well said Rob.

This gun fetish on the right is sickening and pathetically juvenile.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:50:12 AM

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The main "gun fetish" destroying the world resides in DC.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:49:38 PM

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I don't see that Dave was attempting to refute that, and based on other articles he's done I think he has said as much. As for myself, thanks for the reminder, which strikes me as unfortunately most timely.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:03:26 PM

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Unfortunately, while many of the leaders reside or work in DC+ (I add the plus because the Pentagon and other facilities within the original square were withdrawn by Virginia), a majority of adult USAns firmly actively support these crazy killers, and a majority of the rest tacitly support them.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:16:54 PM

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I agree Dave. I work with right wing gun-toting conservatives all the time.

For some reason they are infatuated with guns. They usually have bumper

stickers or signs on their garage door where they threaten to shoot you if

you trespass on their property. People from other countries don't understand

America's infatuation with guns. It seems to be a trait peculiar to the United

States.

They like to put up signs like "America is free, your welcome."

They are indeed a juvenile lot.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:48:22 PM

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You nailed this delusional troll.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:39:13 AM

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Military and ex-military people are often prone to this kind of thinking.

They were brainwashed by the military and it is just about impossible to

deprogram them. I run into these types all the time.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:57:32 PM

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These military types are 16% of the U.S. "law" enforcement community, and most of the remaining LEOs look up to these killers.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:19:53 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Don't label all veterans gun nuts. Our former chief of police in my town, a Vietnam vet himself, said he likes hiring combat vets precisely because they understand guns and respect them. He said they rarely, in his experience, want to be on SWAT squads because they've "been there done that" kicking in doors and busting and shooting people, and don't want to do it in civilian life. He said the worst cops are the "wanna be" soldiers who aren't soldiers.


Just sayin'...

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:30:18 PM

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The ex-military I know don't think that way, not even the conservative ones. There IS a meme going among angry white men that Johnson is reflecting, including his links.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 11:30:16 PM

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Wupatki

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Dave, I share your sentiments, and abhor Johnson's. Somehow, even in these days and years of Trump, I've been unable to lose hope that sanity will prevail, and altruism will supplant greed. But I also believe that most cops and soldiers participate in a subculture that shares Johnson's values. I do not look for aid from them anytime soon.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:20:10 AM

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jim smith

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Actually no. History has shown the opposite. During times of extreme strife, people will act on their own best interest.


Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:30:15 PM

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

That would mean cooperating with neighbors, at least in our culturally diverse neighborhood, where cooperation is already high. Vietnamese to our left, Phillipinos to the right, Latinos across the street, Pakistanis behind us, and equally diverse religious backgrounds.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:16:42 PM

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Tom James

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

Those would be the people who were selfish and greedy even in good times.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:21:51 AM

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jim smith

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Reply to Tom James:   New Content

However, during bad times, the worst side of people will very often come out.

THink about it. Economy and government has crumbled. You have no access to food and supplies. No police to enforce laws. You are seeing other people out for them selves acting with impunity. Even a good person will be hardpressed not to act to protect themselves. And if they have children, forget it.


Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:42:07 PM

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Richard Pietrasz

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

The worst certainly comes out when people become rich and powerful, at least much of the time. One of the more commonly repeated quotes of Jesus noted this in Matthew 19, comparing the odds of a rich man going to heaven with a camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Submitted on Friday, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:35:53 PM

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Tom James

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Those would be the people who were selfish and greedy even in good times.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:23:42 AM

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Bill Johnson

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

Exactly. It is nice to believe in idealism, but one day humans have to wake up to reality.


When the food is gone, fuel is gone, money wont buy anything and water is turned off it will not be kum ba yah BS as predicted here.


It will get crazy out there real fast. Dave is totally wrong here and so far off base to the point of clueless idealism- a failed dream of his.


The government has long made plans for all of this too. Their plans make for some interesting reading...


If any of you care to see what is planned for your communities when society breaks down:


Pentagon preparing for mass civil breakdown

I have been aware of civil defense planning for most of my 50 years...


Dave Lindorff however is totally disconnected from reality.


Kum ba yah will not happen.



Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 3:12:36 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

Bill, You and Smith are the delusionaly ones. You've watched one too many, or perhaps binge-watched(?) dystopic end-of-the-world sci-fi movies.


Governments don't just collapse. They go down slow. If the dollar collapses and the markets collapsed, the federal government will still be here. It may become a military police state to protect the ruling class, but that would not man that the public would turn on itself. More likely it would turn on the ruling class. Why would my neighbors try to steal from me. The good stuff is in the wealthiest gated communities, and we could get that by organizing, not by stealing what little each of us would have stored away in our pantries.


And the fact that the federal government turned on us would not mean that our local governments would collapse. On the contrary, many local governments are quite popular and could be expected to organize resistance to federal authorities. Barter could be organized based on work credits, obviating the need for valueless greenbacks. In fact some places are attempting to do this now. Our local food coop has a kind of scrip for local volunteer efforts, for example.


Cooperation always beats the law of the jungle.


The trouble is, my vision would make a boring movie.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 3:51:59 PM

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

Jesus was gunless, was he also Godless?

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:54:42 PM

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jim smith

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I am sorry but there are a lot of difference between the Great Depression and now.

First and foremost, we were lucky we did not degenerate into civil war and anarchy. For a large and unfortunately racist country, we were very very close to anarchy.

What helped, and what is the big difference is, that most people could find a connection to a food source. People came together as a result of enlightened self interest. Once a community came together, all other, especially if you were black or an immigrant, were essentially told to get out.

If things break down, either through a financial breakdown, climate breakdown, or if we are forced to go green which will destroy the economy in the short turn, all hell will break loose.

History has proven time and time again, most revolutions are bloody and violent affairs where old blood feuds are settled. At best, there will be kangaroo courts well certain people and their families will be guilty until proven guilty and then executed.

I fear we are approaching that point. In another 20 fifty years, the US will probable be in total bloody anarchy.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:28:35 PM

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molly cruz

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I was in NY during the famous blackout of 65 (?) and it was a revelation. Everyone was lovely. I had the pleasure of walking from 72 street W down to my home in the East Village (9th); there were candles lining coffee shop counters, everyone was having a ball, the snow was quite deep, quieting the usual New York roar, and Peace reigned for days. I understand there was not one serious crime throughout the 'ordeal' in the five boroughs.


Same thing in Santa Cruz CA when the huge quake hit and there was no power for over a week. One began to wish it would never come back, that encroaching 'hum-buzz' that defines everything we do. Sitting around in a wood stove-heated kitchen to the light of several candles, about to have dinner, and we all moaned our disappointment when the lights came on and the frig started to whine. A huge catastrophe is what we all need, it would seem.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:00:59 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Reply to molly cruz:   New Content

Excellent rebuttal.


Most people are inherently altruistic. Even across race and nationality. Again there are racist, xenophobic a**holes, but they are a distinct minority. And even racists will often be warm-hearted and generous confronted with a case of evident need by an actual human being of another race. It's in the abstract that they hate.


Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:45:04 PM

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molly cruz

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Amen. True colors shining through~

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:14:15 PM

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jim smith

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Actually, people are not inherently altruistic. History has shown that time and time again.

They will support family members, maybe a few close friends.

They might team up with a tight knit community due to self interest but that is about it.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 5:38:07 PM

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

You got it! Nailed it! Liberals can not process reality correctly to lead their minds to accurate conclusions.


Point is, maybe liberals should not vote since voting is in the real world and not the fantasy lala land liberals live within hiding within hoping it were real.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 3:16:22 PM

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molly cruz

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Reply to Bill Johnson:   New Content

I think we judge others by our own personal standards, projecting our own deficiencies. Two thirds, by actual analysis, prefer the lala thing. It's really a matter of what we want to make. The guess is deprived people tend to be unruly so it's best to take care of everyone. Also it's right.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:00:26 PM

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John Jonik

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Reply to molly cruz:   New Content

'Bout time to insert a little graphic re/ "liberals" "conservatives"...suggesting that there's no shortage of common terms that are kind of off target.


Copyrighted Image? DMCA

Submitted on Friday, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:26:00 AM

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jim smith

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Reply to molly cruz:   New Content

With respect to the blackout, that did not last all that long. And there was still law and order present.

And I am sure there were crimes, major and minor going on. It just did not get a log press.

And I am sure you were in the very very small minority about being upset when lights came back on.


The point is that in the short term, humans are okay during a catastrophe. But in the long term, in the absence of law and adequate supplies, it will degenerate into a lord of the flies scenario.


And we most certainly do not need a huge catastrophe. Just ask all of the people who are killed during the earthquake.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 5:55:37 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

HUH? You mean the dead victims who rioted afterwards, presumably as zombies?

You have given zero concrete examples of people turning into wild animals in a crisis. Zero.

That's a pretty weak argument you present.

I and others here have given a number of examples to show that in a crisis people come together, don't attack and steal from each other.

You're mad dreams of a post-catastrophe dystopia ruled by those who had the prescience to stockpile guns and ammo are just that: nightmares.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:30:32 PM

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

In every crisis you have mentioned, there has been a government in the background to maintain some semblance of law and order. And the crisis are relatively short lived. And there was a source of supplies.



When the big crisis, there will be no government and no source of supplies. And most people are cut off from food production. They would not know how to grow their own food and those that do will not be able to produce enough food for everyone.


And while they are not the same thing, revolutions can give you a preview of what a big crisis look like. Violence and blood shed with everyone looking after them self. Heck, you have talked about, and to a certain extent would support, mobs tearing the leaders apart after a revolution


Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 6:53:50 PM

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Dave Lindorff

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Reply to jim smith:   New Content

A revolution is another matter. Maybe this country someday will have a revolution again -- a real one that deals with class struggle, not a fake one like in 1776, which was the landed gentry trying to get out of paying taxes to the crown. But a revolution, while it can be violent, imposes a kind of order. It's not random killing, it's forces lined up trying to wrest power from an established elite.

A revolution is not "everone out for himself" at all. far from it. It is an organized movement to overthrow the established power and replace it with another, most often a class of people who have been oppressed and kept out of power. If there is revolutionary violence, it is directed at those formerly or still in power who are resisting the change being wrought.

America badly needs a revolution. Hopefully if and when it comes it can be done peacefully, as was done in Chile in 1970 (sadly overthrown by the CIA-orchestrated military coup in 1973). But if the corporate elite and mega-rich decide to try to crush such a revolution, there will be violence to defend it, and that would be targeted violence to defend the revolution -- a far cry from chaos and "every person for him or herself."

Dave

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:35:15 PM

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jim smith

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Reply to Dave Lindorff:   New Content

Actually revolution is usually directed at anyone the oppressors consider an enemy. IE the Russian revolution, Cuba, Hati.


And it is a pipe dream to think the revolution in this country will be non-violent. There are too many people on the radical left and right that embrace violence. I continual read articles from people on the left who want to see the elite arrested, strung up, executed, etc.


Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:34:12 PM

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Strong claims require strong evidence. -- Carl Sagan. And me.

Submitted on Wednesday, Sep 12, 2018 at 11:48:58 PM

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My reply was to James Smith. Which reminds me to send some money that I don't have to OEN, to help with the server glitch.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 1:02:51 AM

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The problem is we have never had a world wide crisis in the modern times. The events you point to were localized crisis with an existing government in place.

IN places where there is no government, things usually end up horrible for everyone.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:44:43 PM

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molly cruz

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I wouldn't try to pry you from your cynicism if I was paid to; but the election of the negative turns out to be one of the few choices we have. In the long term, we made it in larger and larger groups without any restraints at all; because we're survivors. We made it through freezes and floods and epic fires and survived as a group. As with your dreary pal above, I urge you to examine your own private experiences, and imagine they weren't inevitable.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 10:05:14 PM

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What will ACLU and others do when/if it's clear that the Supreme Court is an impossible, in vain, path towards justice in all sorts of cases, especially if cases involve corporate interests vs. basic civil rights?

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 4:47:04 AM

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Helen Carpenter

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Many families in the Great Depression still had rural links that don't exist any longer. Not certain the new society will be as well behaved with the brutalizing popular culture we've been subjected to for decades. My mother-in-law was a young adult in the Lille area of Northern France during WWII. Her recollections were nobody EVER shared anything. She was an upaid apprentice working at a dressmakers. The owner still had clients and never shared as much as a crust of bread while my mother-in-law was starving and eating dandelion leaves. To this day my husband's family hates farmers because they we're eating during the war when nobody else was.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:14:52 AM

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On the other hand France was a case where half the country were closet fascists and anti-semites who were happy with Germans coming into their country. The other half resisted the Germans as they could, including many who at great personal risk worked in the underground as resistance fighters until D-Day. I suspect those farmers your parents hated were in the former group.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:24:30 PM

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I read through all the comments before deciding to add my two cents.


I see our society as a whole, largely angry about 'just about everything'....just read the front pages of the newspapers.


We're all aware of the rich elite, the country being run on behalf of corporate profit, gun violence occurring daily, incomes stagnating and prices rising, a myriad of stories during election time of voter purging, gerrymandering, etc...etc...etc...


I don't know how it will turn out...I do believe we have more good and decent folk, than we do gun-nuts...and both will be visible in bad, domestic times....the violent scenarios will get the most coverage.


I think it's pretty dang sad that the country, by in large, has lost much of its soul for profit over people and war over peace are the major things we're aware of. Doubtless there will be many local communities coming together in a collective, supportive way when/if disaster strikes. I'm not sure those stories will be front page news but have no doubt violence will be. It'd be nice if I was wrong.

Submitted on Thursday, Sep 13, 2018 at 3:23:13 PM

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