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Syria: here's what it's all about; the underlying reasons for this terrible bloody war

By       Message Michael Payne       (Page 1 of 2 pages)     Permalink    (# of views)   66 comments

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From flickr.com: Syria's Winter {MID-339274}
Syria's Winter
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Syrian winter: Owner: FreedomHouse at .flickr.com/people/69684588@N07/

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Trump, the "lame duck" president who is on his way out the door, has just set off a massive firestorm in Washington, D.C. with the announcement that he is going to remove all U.S. troops from the bloody war in Syria. Washington D.C., including the Congress, the military establishment, and various foreign affairs experts and observers were shocked and stunned after hearing that news.

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In a very short time, Secretary of Defense James Mattis announced that he was resigning and would leave the Trump administration at the end of February. He indicated he is resigning in protest of the move that he has called a monumental mistake. Trump, upon hearing of his resignation and the reasons he stated, immediately fired him.

It's been widely reported that "Mattis's resignation letter was the sharpest, and most public, protest from inside the Trump administration over the president's rejection of the alliances and relationships that have underpinned American security since the end of World War II." Washington is in an uproar over this controversial move,, one that is not going to die down in the near future.

I have a very different view than Trump relative to the Syrian situation. He wants to pull our troops out of that country because he believes that ISIS has now been defeated and that terrorist group is no longer a threat in that country.

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I think that our troops should be removed from that country but for an entirely different reason; because they should never have been sent to that country in the first place, that their illegal entry into Syria was in no way justifiable.

My position on this issue was clearly stated in this article that I wrote back in September 2015, the purpose of which was to identify and report on the specific root causes of that war, based on the facts and evidence gathered from some of the best, highly respected Middle East experts.

Many of my conclusions were based on the excellent writings and conclusions made by one of the very best Middle Eastern and Eurasian affairs experts, Pepe Escobar, who for many years was the main writer for the Asian Times website. There are few of his kind who can match his expert views and conclusions in these regions of the world.

Here are some excerpts from the article:

"This situation is very complex and there is much confusion over who initiated this civil war; who is the most responsible and the most guilty, and how and it will ever be resolved. We must not just accept the usual explanations that are offered up by this government or the controlled national media but, instead, think deeper to try to develop the most plausible underlying causes.

With that in mind let's turn our attention to the vast oil and natural gas reserves in the Middle East and the transit systems that are used to deliver these resources to other countries. When we speak of pipelines it should be understood that a tremendous competition currently exists for delivery of natural gas to many of the European nations.

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The country of Qatar has substantial reserves of gas which it badly wants to sell to these European countries, to take the business away from Russia, the current major supplier, and prevent Iran from doing the same in the future. The favored, most expeditious route for the Qatar gas pipeline is via Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria, to Turkey and then to Europe.

The problem is that President Assad of Syria, who initially signed off on the routing this pipeline through his country did an about-face and backed out of the deal. And that was what then triggered this massive, bloody conflict that has devastated the country of Syria and its people.

Quite likely Assad did it because he decided to align himself with the planned development of the competing Iran,-Iraq-Syria pipeline. That move on his part is why many geopolitical experts say that this clash between Syria and Iran (with Russia in the background) on the one side and Qatar/Saudi Arabia and the U.S. on the other, was the main reason why this conflict erupted.

Is it logical to think that competition over a pipeline route could actually cause such a massive war and crisis? Well, many past wars were started over much less important issues; and in this situation, the European gas market represents mega-billions of business for whoever is the major supplier and controls the method of delivery."

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Michael Payne is an independent, progressive activist. His writings deal with social, economic, political and foreign policy issues. He is a featured writer on Opednews and Nation of Change and his articles have appeared on many other websites (more...)
 

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Michael Payne

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One way or another, if both Russian and U.S. troops are removed from this war-torn country then that will be a great thing for Syria and the entire world; no matter what the real reasons behind these decisions may be.

So here's a message for Trump: in addition to Syria get out of Iraq, get out of Afghanistan, and get out of the entire Middle East where this current government, with an overly aggressive foreign policy, never did belong and had no right to be. Just get out and stay out.

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 5:04:18 PM

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Dennis Kaiser

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Michael, I give you credit for this article as you are among a very few who favor ending these war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 8:55:41 PM

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Reply to Dennis Kaiser:   New Content

While I was in various parts of the military for 8 years, I'm totally against unnecessary, illegal, unjustifiable, wars which this government has initiated over decades. War has been embedded in the American psyche and we must remove it. In fact, the first article I had published about 17 years ago was entitled "The Perfect Storm" and it was warning this government not to proceed with the invasion of Iraq or it would be a terrible mistake and backfire, and it did.

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 9:57:13 PM

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Reply to Dennis Kaiser:   New Content

I thought so too, Dennis, until I got to the bit about the Russians, which IMHO, was way off the mark and watered down his whole article. Without that inclusion, it would have been spot on.

However, to be FAIR, the article does not mention, even once, that Trump promised numerous times, especially during his campaign for President, that he would remove U.S. troops from the M.E. and bring them back home.

It's quiet reveling, that not one MSM site, or talking head, has ever mentioned any of those releases he made, making these promises. All we hear, is his sudden decision to withdraw. Which is FALSE.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:16:54 AM

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The Syrian ''civil war'' was part of the Arab Spring which actually started in Western Sahara and spread to Tunisia and all over the area. The Arab Spring has several beginnings. First there is the extended drought that reduced crop yields in the area. Then there is the doubling of world wide grain prices which caused poor people not to be able to feed their children well. Remember the man in Tunisia set himself on fire because he couldn't feed his child. The doubling of the world price of grains began in 2008. click here


The civil war was not just because of hunger but because the international banksters wanted to eliminate the publicly owned central bank and bring under control of the BIS and IMF just as had happened in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. Ukraine could actually be added to that list. The only remaining independent central banks are in Cuba, Iran, North Korea and Syria. The dollar is tied to oil and no oil country is allowed to sell in other than the dollar. Syrian

Girls actually gives the best analysis.

.youtube.com/watch?v=feTt6hRnceA

This an old play book going back centuries. Read John Perkins' Confessions of an Economic Hit Man and Ellen Brown's Web of Debt. The political maneuvering and the war fare are just sub plots. The American military are The Storm Troopers of Wall Street.


Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 5:43:00 PM

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Reply to Alexander Kershaw:   New Content

You're reply is spot on.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 6:58:59 PM

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

Disagree.

First, Russian troops will not be removed from Syria.

Second, restoring Assad's criminal regime' s power will not be great.

Submitted on Wednesday, Jan 2, 2019 at 1:08:22 AM

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Putin has tried a couple of times to remove his troops but then backed off. He eventually will remove most of them, especially if US troops leave, but he will leave a contingent of his troops to help Assad regain control of his government. He has a strategic major naval base at Tartus on the Mediterranean Sea that he will never allow to be closed.


Who knows what Assad will do and how much power he will have?

Submitted on Wednesday, Jan 2, 2019 at 2:18:53 AM

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Criminal Assad will have enough power, my friend.

"Some Russian troops" is too many.

Nothing great, I am afraid, my friend.

Submitted on Wednesday, Jan 2, 2019 at 2:44:38 AM

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You may be entirely right. This is a very complex situation, perhaps with no real solution. Have a great New Year.

Submitted on Wednesday, Jan 2, 2019 at 6:22:55 PM

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Not keeping score or anything, of course, but this may be the first piece you've written that I agree with almost completely from beginning to end, Michael. An incisive analysis of the completely avoidable situation in Syria.

I recommend you look into the link between Benghazi, Muammar Gaddafi's vast arsenal of Russian weapons, and how those weapons ended up in the hands of ISIS after Gaddafi met his untimely and savage demise. Great material for further study, if you're inclined.

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 7:06:49 PM

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I have read there are a couple of reasons for the Syria "incursion," 1 being a Saudi pipeline into Europe to compete with the Russian one. 2 is the Zionist agenda for Greater Israel. All one has to do is follow the $'s to find out the truth. A vast majority of Syrian's support the Assad regime, so the lame excuse of his tyranny is absurd. Most stupid American's get their news from the MSN which only promotes US interests. click here

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 10:11:39 PM

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Absoluetly, spot on accurate post, Stan. Well done.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:18:57 AM

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Bravo. I'm also a vet againt war and agree with your article completely. Thanks for writing it.

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 11:33:33 PM

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What is so very unfair and immoral about these illegal wars is when those troops who joined to defend this country from legitimate threats are suddenly thrust into invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries where they have no right to be and then ordered to fight against people who posed no harm to America. That's illegal and immoral but that is what has been done numerous times. And that is what must be stopped.



Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 11:44:16 PM

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Yes, Michael it must be stopped. BUT, the citizens of the U.S. DO NOT SUPPORT STOPPING SUCH ACTIONS. In every poll conducted since the ILLEGAL invasions conducted by the U.S. since the very first encounter vis a vis Kuwait, the citizens of the U.S. have stood solidly behind their Ultimate leader and their military actions abroad. Witness what's being done to Assange, who brought into the lounge rooms of every American, what their troops were doing in Iraq. What did these wonderful upstanding "exceptional" people do about it ???????????????????? Close their eyes, ignore it, and set action for the crusifixtion of Assange himself, for bringing them, the FACTS of what their country was doing, on their behalf. Even today, many years now after those events, Americans still thirst for Assange's blood.

Maybe you could write an article, explaining to us all, why there is this THIRST to crucify Assange for doing the RIGHT THING ???????

One things for sure, until the citizens of America can recognise their actions are CRIMINAL, and CAUSE of many of the World's conflicts today, institute remedial actions, to cease such activity, nothing will change, until similar actions strike the U.S. mainland. Which IMHO, would be long overdue.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:33:06 AM

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That's the Presstitute Media Propagandists (PMP) doing their job. The Average American citizen has been dumbed down to where war crimes and crimes against humanity are great!

How far our nation has fallen.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 10:09:18 AM

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It is like "war crimes and crimes against humanity" are the moral and ethical things for this country to commit, i.e., Orwellian.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 7:54:22 PM

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The "good American" signing up to protect America. You have to be a certain ignorant soul to buy that, and yes we have them. Many unemployed and looking for 3 squares and maybe some college tuition. Some people commit, so I'm told, minor crimes to get locked up and get medical care in the US of A.


But we know, don't we (?), that the military is not about protecting Americans. General Smedly Butler spelled it out decades ago: War is a Racket.


I support Vets for Peace!

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 3:59:36 PM

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"You have to be a certain ignorant soul to buy that, and yes we have them." What kind of statement is that? Don't you understand that there were many young Americans who reacted to what they considered to be a heinous act against their country by enlisting and going to Iraq and Afghanistan thinking they were doing the right thing and then later had second thoughts after they had been in the slaughter of innocent civilians? You can call them ignorant but I won't. They were tricked into believing in illegal, immoral wars.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 5:02:48 PM

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Tricked or ignorant is what it is. It's not a fatal flaw, one that can be readily corrected, and perhaps you have by writing this piece (particularly since many of these wars - particularly in Syria is the handiwork of B. Obama). No doubt for some time Butler was first tricked and ignorant until...he wasn't.

You may appreciate this well written piece by Max Blumenthal in Consortiumnews: Critics of Syrian Withdrawal.

Happy New Year

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 5:31:11 PM

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It is a good exercise to write an article similar to this. However, there are errors in this article which Stan Crawford mentioned two of those.

There are plenty of evidences especially on this site about Sept. 11. If what you say is true, where is the punishment for savage Saudi's? No sanctions? Why not? Unless Western countries and Russia want to ridicule international laws and create mayhem.

The term Middle East is phony and it was created in the 20th century for imperial interest(s). There is no historical reference to it and people who live in the region avoid using it. This is a clue which we use for people who write about our region that they know very little.

One easy way to track who did what is to trace the military equipment usage and where injured ISIS members were treated.

No mention of stolen Iraqi oil which was sold under market prices to Turkey and some Western countries?

No mention of Hollywood in supporting war(s) in West Asia? Check out the films which have been produced lately.

No mention of stolen artifacts which are now in the UK-Israel-USA museums?

No mentioned of trillion of dollars wasted to kill millions of people and destroy historical sites which go back to several thousands of years?

Where is the justice for causing all the destructions in West Asia?

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 11:37:16 PM

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I'm sorry but I can't put everything into one article. And I have to admit that I'm not knowledgeable about every single aspect of what has happened in this region of the world. Someone like you should write an article that covers all the things that you would like to have included in this discussion.

Submitted on Friday, Dec 28, 2018 at 11:49:28 PM

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I believe Mohammad has already, done a pretty good job of clarifying the muddy waters on here.

Good job Mohammad. I'm surprised at you Michael, pleading ignorance. I was once told by a highly respected Judge, ignorance is no excuse, I'd say this applies here totally. There is no excuse for your ignorance on these matters. All the information is readily available at your finger tips, all it needs is the WILL to seek that info. To be blunt, in my experience, there are very few Americans indeed, who are willing to go down that road. That's a choice they make, therefore the plea, I dunno about any of that, simply does not cut the mustard old chap.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:38:56 AM

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Eddy, mein freund: thank you so very much for entering this discussion and then taking the time to critique the article and pass judgment on my writing and the comments of various participants. I really appreciate the help, sir.

Now about Trump promising to remove Troops from Syria during the campaign. Yes, he did say that but he says a lot and most of it is no more than just talking with no substance behind it. If it was so important then why did he wait for two years to announce it? Could it because this Putin puppet on a string was told by his master to wait until it was the right time? And all of a sudden after Putin indicated that he wanted Russia to withdraw because the conflict was dying down Trump made his startling announcement. When Putin barks out the orders Trump jumps to attention and follows his dictates.

And you said: "There is no excuse for your ignorance on these matters." Well, I'll let that pass and just say this, taking a quote from the great movie, Animal Farm; "Thank you, sir, may I have another?"


Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 3:55:11 PM

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Lois Gagnon

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

Let me if I may, introduce another possible reason for Trump's taking 2 years to announce the withdrawal of troops from Syria. The possibility of turning it over to his pal Eric Prince, Betsy Devos' brother and owner of Blackwater/Academie. Maybe he's just privatizing the forever war just like everything government does is being privatized.


How do you hold privatized war criminals accountable for their crimes?


I'm all for bringing home the troops. I'm just not so sure there is not a devious plan to replace those troops with mercenaries.


The "Putin did it" narrative is wearing pretty thin. There are plenty of bad guys to go around, especially in the US. Putin is not the biggest villain on the planet. It appears he's mostly just trying to maintain Russia's sovereignty while at the same time avoiding WWlll and being constantly provoked by the puppets of Western Corporate Empire.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 8:56:25 PM

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Reply to Lois Gagnon:   New Content

You ask,"How do you hold privatized war criminals accountable for their crimes?"


We can hold them under water for an interminable period.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 4:05:45 AM

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Reply to shad williams:   New Content

Eric Prince should be charged as an accessory to murder for his role in providing the mercenaries in Iraq that killed Iraqi innocent in wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisour_Square_massacre. His company goes by the new moniker: click here. He and others like him need to be shut down!

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 5:14:58 PM

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Michael Payne

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Reply to Stan Crawford:   New Content

He directly helped in the destruction of Iraq and the attacks on its people and he was singled out for his misdeeds. And then suddenly his name seemed to disappear and we heard no more. Who gave him the free pass?

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 7:29:16 PM

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Reply to shad williams:   New Content

I do love your comments, Shad.

Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 12:57:33 PM

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

Calling Trump a "Putin puppet" (HRC?) is analogous to Fox commentators referring to every corporate Democrat as leftists. Regardless the possible validity of the argument you just pooped on your "case".

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 12:51:03 AM

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Michael Payne

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Reply to Art Costa:   New Content

Art: so when I called Trump; a Putin puppet it apparently was not to your liking, right?

Well, let me expand on that remark so you really understand where I'm coming from. He is not only that puppet but he is a misogynist, a pathological liar, someone who shows disdain for immigrants and minorities, who has tried to make Muslims the enemy, who calls women fat, lazy, dumb, and says that it's ok to grab them by the pus--y if you're famous.


This is someone who is aligned with dictators and despots like Putin, Kim Jong Un, Msb, the Saudian murderer, Erdogan of Turkey and others. This is a pretend president who, if he and his fellow Republican power brokers gain the power, will create an authoritarian government in America.

Does that make my position very clear so you fully understand the dangers that this country faces with this clearly unstable person in the presidency? Do you get it?


Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 2:25:50 AM

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shad williams

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

There you go again, Michael and you were doing so well. of course the way you describe Trump, makes him appear to me to be the same type of agent the elites have deployed as a US president forever it seems except this one jumps off the hegemonics train periodically... it's a bloody murderous war train, you know. Or are you suggesting that Putin is pushing Trump off the train, trying to save Trump's life, maybe even the lives of those wanting a peaceful world? I can imagine Trump wondering out loud why he has friends like Putin? Who benefits when Trump is pushed off the train?

It has been a long time since a president made a difference in Americans quality of life, even then it was a psyop to stop a second revolution.

You sound as though you are upset that the hegemonics train appears to be losing steam? All because as you write, "He is not only that puppet but he is a misogynist, a pathological liar, someone who shows disdain for immigrants and minorities, who has tried to make Muslims the enemy, who calls women fat, lazy, dumb, and says that it's ok to grab them by the pus--y if you're famous."

You've also described the actions of some of those on the hegemonic train, Qadaffi's murderers were on the train... the ones that came, that saw and then he died?

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 4:59:19 AM

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Michael Payne

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Reply to shad williams:   New Content

Shad: Yes that's what I'm doing and its extremely important. I'm simply listing the personal "characteristics" of this current president that would seem to be the exact opposite of what one would expect of this highest of positions of responsibility in our country. Which one of them doesn't fit Trump?


What should we expect? Well, the exhibiting of high regard for the principles of honesty and integrity, the courage of one's convictions, honor, empathy toward others, an objective to unite the various factions of this country and others that clearly show a high degree of leadership. Which of these fit Trump?

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 4:54:50 PM

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David Watts

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"No mentioned of trillion of dollars wasted to kill millions of people and destroy historical sites which go back to several thousands of years?"

To people who get upset their tax dollars support those who are on welfare and food stamps, I tell them maybe they should get upset by the Trillions(!) of tax dollars being spent on illegal wars based on lies to kill and maim millions of men, women, and children ... including unborn fetuses. After all, that is where the real money goes.

...

Mohammad, Thank you for educating me that the proper term is 'West Asia.'

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 8:12:43 PM

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Well said. And let us recall that it was 'evil Russia' that was asked to help Syria by Assad. Who is also the legitimate leader of Syria. Plus, Russia did earlier partial withdrawals but returned as conditions showed Syria needed more help. So who is the real Evil Empire, that wrecks other countries seemingly almost for sport?

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 12:46:31 AM

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No country will ever equal The United States for being evil!!

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 2:18:41 AM

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Eddy Schmid

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TOP POST OF THE DAY, prize goes to you, Floyd.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:40:23 AM

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Eddy Schmid

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Quote, "those troops who joined to defend this country from legitimate threats" Unquote

Could you give us just TWO examples in the past 100 years, when the U.S. were called upon to defend the U.S. from "legitimate threats " ?

WW 1 and WW 2. were not legitimate threats against the U.S. so you can leave them out.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 6:46:51 AM

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Jim Griffin

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You are correct in pointing out that the Syrian "war" is about oil/gas/pipeline. Indeed, the entire Middle East conflict has always been about oil. How is it, then, that you continue to imply that hijackers caused buildings to explode? Your unwillingness to correctly identify 9/11 as an "inside job" undermines your otherwise accurate assessment. The Forever War was begun and continues based on a demonstrably false narrative and you don't seem able to get that. And that's a shame.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 12:22:15 PM

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Jim Griffin

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You are correct in pointing out that the Syrian "war" is about oil/gas/pipeline. Indeed, the entire Middle East conflict has always been about oil. How is it, then, that you continue to imply that hijackers caused buildings to explode? Your unwillingness to correctly identify 9/11 as an "inside job" undermines your otherwise accurate assessment. The Forever War was begun and continues based on a demonstrably false narrative and you don't seem able to get that. And that's a shame.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 12:23:03 PM

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Michael Payne

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Reply to Jim Griffin:   New Content

You said, How is it, then, that you continue to imply that hijackers caused buildings to explode? Your unwillingness to correctly identify 9/11 as an inside job." Well, I'm getting really tired of having others put words into my mouth.

How in the world do you know what I'm thinking? I am one of those who strongly believes that 9/11 was an inside job even though that belief continues to not be official. And yes, I also believe that there were foreign hijackers who crashed those buildings into the towers, after which the internal explosives went off.

I saw the planes crash into the towers so that was not an illusion. If that was done by hijackers, and I believe that it was, then I also believe that most all of them were Saudis and, if they were, I would have done two things: I would have decided on an extremely severe punishment of Saudi Arabia and, instead of invading and attacking Afghanistan, I would have rooted out Osama of his hiding using only Special Forces. That is, after proving that he was directly involved.


Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 5:21:31 PM

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David Watts

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

Muslim hijackers did not fly airplanes into the buildings. In fact Hani Hanjour, the supposed 'pilot' of American Airlines fit 77 could not even fly a small, single engine Cessna 172. His instructor refused to go up with him again because ... he did not know what the hell he was doing. Besides, all four airliners greatly exceeded their max operating speeds and airline pilots with thousands of hours cannot even come close to duplicating the same flight paths in simulators at that speed. To think Hani could fly for his very first time in a jet airliner the absolutely perfect high-speed downward spiral and level off perfectly at 20 feet off the ground is maybe just a little bit unreasonable. Don't you think?

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 8:33:43 PM

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Michael Payne

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Reply to David Watts:   New Content

I'm certainly no expert on this matter but I swear I saw those planes crashing into the Twin Towers or was this an optical illusion? Did thousands of people close by on the ground see them crash into the buildings or did they see an optical illusion?

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 9:21:06 PM

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Lance Ciepiela

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"We Will Comply" - #USAttorney #AskDOJ "pre-planted explosives used at the WTC" on #911AM and #911PM #SignThePetition.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 12:01:42 AM

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Michael Payne

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Lance and others: I do believe that the Twin Towers were brought down by planted explosives but, as I said, "I'm certainly no expert on this matter but I swear I saw those planes crashing into the Twin Towers or was this an optical illusion? Did thousands of people close by on the ground see them crash into the buildings or did they see an optical illusion?


Is anyone saying that those planes did not hit the buildings??

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 12:24:23 AM

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Lance Ciepiela

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

Whether or not "seeing the planes" does "not" really explain what really happened on 9/11 ("why revisit 9/11?") - the two planes "did not" bring the three Towers down.

Building 7 was not hit by a plane but came down at 5:20 PM in 6.5 seconds - most certainly, no "office fire" could do that, i.e., "pre-planted explosives used" to bring down all three towers.


Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 1:51:06 AM

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

I did not say anything about airplanes not flying into the buildings so they may well have been airplanes but there is at least some good reason to think there were actually no airplanes. I will not get into that as I am not very studied up on that possibility. However at the pentagon, there is almost no chance it was an airplane and actually, I will say there was indeed no chance. I won't get into that right now either.

I understand you are no expert on this matter. I, however, was an airline pilot for a lot of years and flew both 757s and 767s many hours. I think that makes me at least somewhat of an expert. I could say a lot more on this subject but I will leave it at no pilot flew those airplanes the way they were flown. Unless of course, they were pilots on the ground flying airplane drones. Whatever it was, those were no ordinary 757s and 767s.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 2:18:24 AM

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There actually is a film regarding the possibility of hologram projections being used to show planes flying into the Towers. (I may have saved it, as it was highly compelling..I'll have to check). Meanwhile, I just searched to find that film again online and it has been 'removed'. Just saying....

Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 1:15:05 PM

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Reply to Leslie Johnson:   New Content

Thank you. I am aware of the possibility of holograms but have not really looked into it. Technology that we do not know about meaning it is kept secret and not in the public domain, is apparently very advanced. Everybody saw airplanes crashing into the towers. But is it possible they were holograms and not real airplanes? It would not surprise me. I have noted a lot of material on the possibility of holograms being used on 9/11 but have not delved into that possibility.

Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 4:12:13 PM

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Reply to David Watts:   New Content

David and Leslie: Do you think that the thousands of eyewitnesses in the streets surrounding the Towers and across the city were not seeing the real thing but were looking at some form of holograms? That's more than a bit of a stretch. And what about some of the notables including wives and husbands that were on those planes? Did they just disappear? They were never seen again.


I repeat: I think the massive explosions were from planted devices and don't know who might have done it. But there is a lot of evidence that the planes crashed into the 2 buildings.



Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 4:37:36 PM

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Lance Ciepiela

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9/11 Pre-Planted Pentagon Explosives
(Image by Barbara Honegger)
Permission Details DMCA

Explosives went off almost eight minutes prior to any alleged impact on the building. #SmokeCurtain #MoltenMetal #IndictableEvidence



Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 5:17:18 PM

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Reply to Michael Payne:   New Content

Michael, you said " ... I also believe that there were foreign hijackers who crashed those buildings into the towers, after which the internal explosives went off."

Then you said you believe " ... most all of them were Saudis and, if they were, I would have done two things: I would have decided on an extremely severe punishment of Saudi Arabia and, instead of invading and attacking Afghanistan, I would have rooted out Osama of his hiding using only Special Forces. That is, after proving that he was directly involved."

I will get to a question. You think they were foreign hijackers and also there were internal explosives in the buildings. You would have severely punished Saudi Arabia for the hijackers being Saudi and you would have rooted out Osama for being directly involved.

My question. Who would you have punished for planting the internal explosives?

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 8:00:36 AM

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The next step after agreeing with this article is to say goodbye to your kids.

I love the push to continue spending trillions on a war so big oil can financially exclude Russia while pumping out enough oil to end life on earth. "Progressives" like this are starting to make Trump look less crazy.

We would have to get rid of Trump in 2020 to have a chance, but slick bs, like that in this article, is greasing the skids bringing on his next four years.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 8:51:48 PM

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Michael Payne

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Reply to Chuck Nafziger:   New Content

Chuck: nothing like making statements such as these, "The next step after agreeing with this article is to say goodbye to your kids." and also, "We would have to get rid of Trump in 2020 to have a chance, but slick ,bs, like that in this article, is greasing the skids bringing on his next four years" and not explaining in understandable terms what you really mean.


It may be a way of scaring someone but it adds nothing of substance or value to this discussion.



Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 9:17:59 PM

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John Lawrence Ré

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"I love the push to continue spending trillions on a war so big oil can financially exclude Russia while pumping out enough oil to end life on earth." The neat, facile oil bogeyman explanation lives on. I once offered 5K to a political researh friend if he could prove the Middle East invasions were primarily "about" oil. He couldn't...because the real causal connections are first and foremost the trillion dollar bonanza for the munitions manufacturers and the other associated war proifiteers in the MIC. Second, the creation of chaos on the doorstep of our captialist competitors in western Europe (a refugee explosion was certainly a foreseen and expected consequence). Third, creation of new enemies to feed the conga line of endless war. And lastly, ratcheting up of stress on Russia in terms of resources and the cost of war preparedness. Remember a weak Russia would far more vulnerable to neoliberal resource ravaging.

Sure there are reasons that involved oil, such as maintaining the dollar as the determinant for pricing oil barrels, but war profiteering per se and experimentation with military technologies trump oil... just as they trumped the proffered reasons of resource acquisition and the domino theory, etc., in the grand military strategy/chemical weapon/hearts and minds experiment inappropriately called the "Vietnam War."

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 10:07:53 PM

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Michael Payne

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Nice to hear the truth spoken in such clear terms.

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 10:35:46 PM

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David Watts

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Michael, you did not reply to my last comment. You said, "... I also believe that there were foreign hijackers who crashed those buildings into the towers, after which the internal explosives went off."


I am curious. Given my comments, do you still think that foreign hijackers crashed airplanes into the buildings?

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 7:39:35 AM

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Lance Ciepiela

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Oh, yes - waiting for Michael's reply. Just say'in "after which the 'internal explosives' went off" - the "WHO" part "has not yet been determined or investigatedby our law enforcement officials or our duly elected or appointed representatives".

However, the #USAttorney has agreed to "comply" with the Lawyers Committee's #GrandJuryPetition- i.e., #FederalCrimes ("bombing places of public use and government facilities") were perpetrated on 9/11 and a #GrandJury can "delve into" the "WHO" part of your question - #BombsWereUsed.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 2:50:04 PM

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Michael Payne

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Thanks for adding such important, meaningful information to the discussion. In these discussions, I have been asking those taking part to not just state opinions but to back them up with supporting facts and evidence. That's what you do.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 5:09:53 PM

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Michael Payne

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You asked: "My question. Who would you have punished for planting the internal explosives?" I have no idea of who it might have been but I would certainly have conducted a very intensive, thorough investigation to try to determine who it was. And this was never done to the degree necessary. Coverup?

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 5:01:20 PM

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David Watts

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Well, do you think it was an inside job? If the Saudis were responsible for the "hijackers" and Osama Bin Laden was directly involved, who planted the explosives? It would not have been possible for the Saudis or Osama to get inside the buildings to plant the explosives so it had to be "us." So you seem to be saying that the conspiracy was a conspiracy carried out together by the Saudis along with bin Laden along with the US. I think you should rethink who was really responsible.

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:31:19 PM

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Michael Payne

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I'm not saying anything like that because I have no way of knowing and nobody else seems to know how such an inside job was done. Over and out, for me. Check with someone who knows much more about this matter.

Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 2:13:34 AM

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David Watts

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I did not say you said that. I was just pointing out that the things you did say and believe are succinctly summarized by,

"So you seem to be saying that the conspiracy was a conspiracy carried out together by the Saudis along with bin Laden along with the US."


Michael, that is the sum and substance of what you have said.


I have just been trying to point a few things about 9/11 to you. Your "over and out for me" makes it seem I have upset you a bit. I apologize, I certainly did not mean to do that.


Submitted on Monday, Dec 31, 2018 at 11:22:10 PM

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Michael Droy

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Incredibly confused, tied up with the idea that Trump is all things evil as the only explanation of anything.


1. Never mind Qatar the western media has been telling lies about Chemical weapons in Syria and barrel bombs for 7 or more years. Syria has been on the US hit list for a long time.

2. The early roots of ISIS are many fold, and certainly Iraq is a large part of it. A bigger part was HRC's Libyan disaster - many deaths, destruction of the most non-oil wealthy economy in N Africa, bombing Gadaffi on the excuse of protecting terrorists, and then promoting the terrorists to run the country. This created a massive supply of arms for pretty much anyone who wanted them.


3.The US supplied a lot of arms to "neutrals" who promptly joined ISIS. Turkey gave them arms and RnR. Israel opened its hospitals to ISIS. Saudi royal family supplied them with a stream of Japanese pick up trucks (After Russia arrived in October 2015, the US finally put a call in to the Japanese government and suggested they ask Toyota to stop sending teh white trucks)


4. No intelligent discussion of ISIS is valid without mentioning the hundeds of $millions they got from selling stolen oil to Nato member and then friend of US, Turkey. In October 2015 for about 24 hours the media was full of pictures of oil trucks queuing on the Turkey border waiting to deliver the oil. You may remember the pictures of long queues as taken by Russian helicopters over them. Since that day, no mention of those queues, or the Turkish financing has ever been made in the media.


5. It is good you recognise US illegality in being there. You should recognise the Obama role in creating ISIS. The Obama role (did he command the CIA or was it the other way around) in creating the fiction that is the modern day myth of Syria. That hid the reality of a nation in full support of its leader Assad, being attacked by foreigners with US/Turkey/Saudi/Qatar/UAE/Israeli support.


6. No one is celebrating the US departure, least of all ISIS. The US did far more damage when it pretended not to be there than when it actually did when it arrived. ISIS has been protected by the open US presence. NO doubt it will be protected by the US "absence".

Submitted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2018 at 9:42:43 PM

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Peter Duveen

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ISIS magically appeared on the scene some time after there was a threat to kick American troops out of Iraq. I had never heard of ISIS, there was a lot of back and forth as to what it was called, ISIS or IS, or daesh, and even its name smacks of a Pentagon position paper, "Islamic State." That's not much of a name. It's like "tires" or "chairs," nothing terribly unique that anyone with a smidgen of self respect would want to call their organization. These alleged IS folks managed to find the Iraqi gold and abscond with it. They had their toyotas all lined up, along with their nicely produced (overproduced) flags, a la a Washington production. I had never heard of IS before that time, it was born fully formed and ready to go, seemingly in reaction to the threatened troop withdrawal. Yes, as Michael Payne points out, Trump indeed said, with no equivocation possible, that IS was the child of Obama and Clinton. And I more or less strongly agree with that conclusion. Please show me where IS was even mentioned before it took over, was it Mosul?, and the gold, and made their gracious debut as head cutters.

Michael, I do not think Trump is Putin's puppet. Russia did exist before and during the campaign, it is a very important country, and it is quite natural for any civilized human being to want to have relations, and good ones at that, with Russia. To turn that into a narrative that Putin has Trump by the puppet strings is far fetched, and it is quite evidently, to my mind, a badly fitting narrative to cast doubt on the 2016 election results while demonizing Russia, the latter being a cornerstone of Establishment designs on taking over the world's governments and resources. So yes for your statement about withdrawing from the Middle East, and no for your characterization of Trump as a Putin puppet..

Submitted on Sunday, Dec 30, 2018 at 8:31:03 PM

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