R.K.: Well wait, let's get in to that a little more. When you say it's an enormous advantage for psychopaths over people not to have a conscience, in what way is it an advantage?
I.H.: Well let me give you an example, if you take Stalin or Mao, or others, my argument is that the history of the world has been written by these people and it has been written by violence and it has been written by people who have brutally treated the majority population that they've seized control over.
So, when you take Mao, when Mao became the leader when the communist party took over in China, the first thing Mao did, he knew that his, what he found as being not very disturbing at all, the fact that he could, in fact when he was, the first time that he took part in a raid on a village and took part in slaughtering, murder and so on, he said it was the most thrilling experience that he had ever had up until that point.
For him, killing people wasn't something that there was some revulsion towards, or something to overcome, but he realized that what he got a thrill out of, most other people find extremely frightening. So when he, the first one of the first things that Mao did whenever the communist party took over in China was he ordered public executions right across China.
There were public executions at which huge numbers of people were killed and he ordered women and children, everyone had to go and witness these executions and it was a means of Mao using his advantage of not having a conscience to cower people into submission. I think you'll find that again and again if you look at what Stalin was doing, if you look in Cambodia with Pol Pot and so forth, and what the Japanese were doing during the Second World War and throughout East Asia, the same thing comes up over and over again. They know that they have an advantage.
R.K: Now wait now, I'm not going to let you get away with this. You're giving some good examples but you're not exactly saying how it's an advantage, what the advantage is. So, what you're saying, and I like the quote that you attribute to Mao Tse Tung, "half of China may have to die."
What a horrendous way of looking at a project, but I want to challenge you on this. So you say lack of conscience is an advantage for these people. Mao Tse Tung used it to be able to kill people, what is the advantage? What are they able to do?
I.H.: They are able to frighten the majority population into submission. Part of it is frightening the majority population into submission but it's not just a matter of frightening, it's also a matter of exterminating any resistance and ruthlessly doing so. So in the first instance, in these situations we're talking about the advantage in a violent situation.
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