JAMES RISEN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: And then they decided to run the story, because you were doing it anyway.
JAMES RISEN: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they would argue -- and there's some truth to it -- that the story was much better by the time -- by the fall -- by the winter of 2005. It's true, it was. We had more information, and we had a lot stronger understanding of the program.
The primary -- you know, there were several reasons that I think, in the end, they decided to run the story. You know, my book started the whole process all over again. And I think the story was dead at The New York Times after the second time they killed it, in December 2004. And I think you've got to say, the only reason they reopened it, the discussion, was because I told them it was going to be in my book. You know, but then there was a whole -- they then started this whole series of new negotiations with the government throughout the fall of 2005 and a whole series of meetings. And I was getting very anxious, because I knew my book was coming out in January 2006, and they kept having these very -- a whole series of meetings that went on forever, and culminating in that meeting with Bush and Sulzberger. And then, after that meeting between Sulzberger and Bush, the White House still wanted them to meet with more people. And I was, at that point, very concerned that they weren't going to make up their mind fast enough. And they seemed, you know, not to want to admit that they were facing a deadline.
And then, fortunately, Eric Lichtblau, my colleague on the story, came in with new information right at the end, where he was told by a very good source that the Bush administration had considered getting a court-ordered injunction against The New York Times to stop the publication of the story. And that was the first time since the Pentagon Papers that the government had thought about doing that against The New York Times. And so, that immediately convinced the paper to publish the story that day -- or that night. And so that was the final reason, ultimately, that it went in that night. And Keller called the White House to tell them we were about to publish it. And then we -- the difference we had between -- with The New York Times of the 1970s is, we had the internet. And so, right after he called the White House and told them, we were able to put it online earlier than normal and then have it in the paper the next day. So, it was, you know, a process that lasted -- you know, took up almost two years of my life, really, in the end.
AMY GOODMAN: And this is the piece for which you and Eric Lichtblau won the Pulitzer Prize?
JAMES RISEN: Yes, yeah, yeah. And then we did follow-up stories. And what --
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, the Times won the prize, as well.
JAMES RISEN: Right, right, right. Yeah, and it was a very, you know, difficult period for me, because, first, we -- I was kind of being thought of as being insubordinate. And then we win the Pulitzer for the same thing, so it was this weird, weird process for me of, you know, fighting internally and then getting the praise externally.
AMY GOODMAN: And the Pulitzer Committee wrote, "For their carefully sourced stories on secret domestic eavesdropping that stirred a national debate on the boundary line between fighting terrorism and protecting civil liberty." When you win a Pulitzer, the editors come out -- what, you pop the champagne corks. Were they celebrating you? And did they apologize to you behind the scenes?
JAMES RISEN: No, they didn't apologize. Yeah, we had the celebration. And I think I write in the story it was very odd for me, because, you know, a few months earlier, I had felt like they were -- I was about to get fired, if the story came out in my book first and the paper hadn't run it before it was in the book. And now, you know, they were having a celebration. And I remember thinking, "This is one of the most awkward moments in my life." But I just decided not to say anything about that, and just, you know, I looked -- I remember I looked over at Keller and Sulzberger and just said, "Well, you know how tough this was." And it was -- I felt like, at that point, I wasn't going to make a big deal out of it again, so...
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, it isn't about just apologizing to you. It's about apologizing to the American people or, because it's a global paper, to the world, around the issue of what it means to publish a story that changes the landscape, the politics of a country. James Risen, we have to break, and when we come back, you mentioned there were two stories that you were publishing in your book --
JAMES RISEN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: -- that the Times had suppressed, and I want to talk about the other, as well, and then what it meant to face jail for not revealing your source. We're not just talking under the Bush administration now, because though you thought it would all change under the Obama administration, it only intensified. We're speaking with the twice Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter James Risen. He's now The Intercept's senior national security correspondent and best-selling author, but, before that, he worked for The New York Times. And he tells this story in a 15,000-word article at TheIntercept.com. We will link to it at democracynow.org. Stay with us.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: "Pressure Drop" by Toots and the Maytals, yes, as much of the country experiences the bomb cyclone, or hyper-bombogenesis. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman, as we spend the hour with the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist James Risen, who was a longtime reporter for The New York Times, now at The Intercept, where this week he's published a 15,000-word piece headlined "The Biggest Secret: My Life as a New York Times Reporter in the Shadow of the War on Terror." James Risen, pursued by both the Bush and Obama administrations as part of a six-year leak investigation into his book and articles. His book, State of War: The Secret History of the CIA and the Bush Administration. His refusal to name a source would take him to the Supreme Court. He almost wound up in jail, until the Obama administration blinked.
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