IMMIGRANT WIFE: And let us raise our children until whatever dream they want. We don't want to kill their dream, because I cannot bring them to my country, does not belong to them.
AMY GOODMAN: So, that was the wife of one of the Indonesian men that was taken. Pastor Seth Kaper-Dale, the significance of the intervention of the stay of deportation now? Do you see this as part of a trend of federal judges saying no to the Trump administration? And what needs to happen now? Also, there are a group of Indonesians -- and I believe Lee Gelernt can address this -- in Boston.
LEE GELERNT: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: And we'll talk about that in a minute.
PASTOR SETH KAPER-DALE: Yeah, I do see it as a trend. And I would say that in the case of the Indonesians, my congregation was deeply involved in working with ICE many years ago in creating opportunities for Indonesians who are not a deportation priority to get stays, because ICE recognized the horrible torture and possible danger that awaited folks in Indonesia. So, we have worked in the past with ICE to do the things that now we're counting on judges to do. And I think that that's one of the things that's happening. We had a moment where the administration understood prosecutorial discretion, especially around issues around torture and other things, and now we're in a place where we're counting on judges to do what at one point we could count on the administrative wing to do.
JUAN GONZALEZ: Lee Gelernt, what about this issue of the Indonesian Christians, especially since President Trump has, on several occasions, talked about the persecution of Christians around the world --
LEE GELERNT: Right.
JUAN GONZALEZ: -- and yet, right here in the United States, they're not dealing with the legitimate requests of the Indonesian Christians not to be sent back to a place where they could be persecuted?
LEE GELERNT: Yeah, exactly. And so, we went to court in Boston on behalf of approximately 50 Indonesian Christians, and the judge blocked deportation. And the judge said, "Look, I am not deciding the legality of their deportation, ultimately. But what I am going to do is give them time to go before an immigration court to show that, as Indonesian Christians, they will be persecuted or tortured if sent back." And that's just basic due process. Now the Indonesian Christians of New Jersey are being threatened in the same way, so we went to court and blocked that. But it's Christian Iraqis out of Detroit, in the whole country. It's --
AMY GOODMAN: How many Iraqis in Detroit are you representing?
LEE GELERNT: There are 1,900, approximately, around the country, not just Detroit. We expanded it to the whole country. The judge has blocked nationwide. And all we're asking for is basic due process. Let them go to immigration court to show they're going to be tortured or killed. When the judge said to the administration, "Why not give them time? It's clear that they may be in danger," the administration said, "No, I'm not giving -- we're not giving them any time." That's when the judge stepped in, in the best traditions of our federal courts.
AMY GOODMAN: And, Ravi Ragbir, Homan, the deputy director of ICE, attacking the judiciary?
RAVI RAGBIR: Well, it's not only Homan. If you hear deputy -- sorry, the AG, Attorney General Sessions, he himself has said publicly that this country will be so much better if we don't have a judiciary where it is right now. That shows the direction of where we're heading to.
And I also wanted to point out two things. One is, my cases, the New Jersey case is different, and the First Amendment case is different, where they are saying that they don't have -- ICE is saying that that court doesn't have jurisdiction for a case that is dealing with a criminal conviction and the First Amendment. It has nothing to do with the actual deportation order itself. And that is what is at stake here, where they are taking away the tools of the court to protect its own space, its own process. And they are fighting that. And, you know, you see the violence that is coming as a result.
AMY GOODMAN: This critical point -- and McNulty, the federal judge in Newark, made this point repeatedly on Friday -- this issue of what it means when you have someone before them and then another branch of government deports them.
LEE GELERNT: Well, absolutely. And so, I just want to be clear. That is happening in Ravi's case, but it is happening in all the cases I've described. In every case, the government's principal argument is the court lacks jurisdiction to do anything. And so that's the common theme around the country: The courts don't have authority to do anything. And that's what the courts have rejected so far, and hopefully will continue to reject.
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