What will give Trump power is the fact that he has both the houses in Congress, including many of his enemies in the Republican Party. And they also demanded that he be beaten. So that's a volatile situation.
DB: Indeed it is. What about this? How do you see this sort of parallel structure that people talk about in terms of the relationship... you mentioned it in the beginning of the interview, between the Brexit vote and Donald Trump? Is this sort of a parallel structure?
JP: Yeah, I think it's related. And your first question, you know, was I surprised? Yes. Ah, no, I wasn't surprised that much, because of Brexit. I think we are at a stage in contemporary history where people almost feel like a Greek chorus, they can see and they are aware of what is happening, but they feel they can't do anything about it. I think that's widespread.
And it doesn't only apply to working people. I think it applies, in the United States, of course, we go back to the issue of class. It certainly does apply to working class people, but it applies to many in the middle class which has been destroyed by these extreme neoliberal economic policies, in recent years.
So, that's what happened here, in Brexit. I always felt that Brexit was a rebellion. It was a rebellion. It was people saying, "We're fed up with these arrogant elites, taking away our basic rights, ignoring us, not hearing us." And I think many people...it wasn't... it was painted, of course, by the liberal class in Britain, as the result of a possibility of increased immigration. Yes, that was part of it. But it wasn't... it was only part of it.
It was about impoverished people, people losing the very underpinning of their security and the security for their families. And that's exactly true in the United States. You go to places like Kentucky where... in those ravaged coal areas, where the life expectancy, I read recently is less than that of Ethiopia. Alright, that may be right at the end of the spectrum. But, you know, it applies to all the states that Trump won. Pennsylvania, particularly, Ohio, and others.
Yeah, and that applied here in a different sense, but not really. It's about... it's about a rebellion. In the United States, there is a vacuum on outside the establishment. I would say that both Clinton and Trump were extreme right-wing. That's how I would describe them.
DB: Well, it was a riveting moment, I guess you could say, when I think it was in a debate with Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton evoked, as one of her key advisors, Henry Kissinger.
JP: Yeah.
DB: That was pretty extraordinary, right?
JP: Yeah, well, you know as someone who should have been prosecuted a long time ago, has been wrong on practically everything anyway, I'm not surprised. She is extreme right-wing. Trump is extreme Populist right-wing. And we're still to find out what that means.
But my point is, that that, even in the center, in the social democratic space, in the former, going way back, Democratic Party space which now doesn't... Democratic Party as far as a reforming party is long gone. But that doesn't exist. The United States has never had a Labor Party. They've got a Labor Party, we've got a Labor Party here, but that's been corrupted by our very own, although rather different in personality, Clinton-type character, Tony Blair. And all the others. That's been corrupted.
And that... in Britain, that has given rise to the extraordinary popularity of Jeremy Corbyn, who never wanted to be leader of the Labor Party, but was really swept up in it by a popular movement, that came straight from this disenchantment, this disaffection, this rejection of the political system.
The same disaffection and disenchantment is in the United States. But who do people vote for? Who do people vote for? In comes Trump, trumpeting all the American stuff about, you know, I'm a rich man, but I got rich because I knew how to do it, and you can too. Speaking this populist language. I don't think Sanders was ever a threat. And really Sanders is a disgrace. You know, his embrace of Clinton was so false some, to the point where Clinton could declare him as an ally. So he was never a threat. He joined, he joined up.
DB: That was really troubling, and obviously, a lot of young people who supported Bernie Sanders, were profoundly troubled. And, I've spoken to some of them, and they are furious, and they didn't show up for Hillary even though they had it drummed into their heads, things like, "Even if it's just the vote on the Supreme Court, that alone is worth it." The appointment of liberal judges.
JP: Yeah. This is grasping for straws, really. And people have got to be, got to stop being disappointed. They've got to be stopped being shocked. Stop being surprised. They've got to understand why something happened. They've got to inform themselves. And they've got to be part of a real movement, a real oppositional movement. Nothing less than that will do now.
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