Regardless of whether the person engages in violence or not. So in current research in psychopath, there is this distinction that's emerging between the psychopath that we would usually talk about in terms of violent behavior and another type of so-called successful psychopath who may have no conscience but who may not be violent.
R.K.: And what was interesting my about your observation is that the, this test, the index by Robert Hare, you suggested it tends to look for people who are jailed, who has the kind of psychopathy that got them in to jail or arrested and there's this other kind that you're referring to, the successful psychopath who is different.
They're the kind that tend to get in to real big positions of power because they don't get themselves in trouble so easily. Go ahead, keep going.
I.H.: So that's exactly true but when you say that the violent ones may not get themselves into positions of power, you're talking of course of the United States or Europe or well peaceful societies but the violent psychopaths can easily get themselves into positions of power in societies where there is a war ongoing or where there is a high level of violence.
So it depends. Both of them share the same characteristic in terms of their basic personality structure. It's the same. They both have the lack of conscience that allows them to treat people as things rather than as people but the so called successful psychopath I think would have more of an in-built mechanism for self control and so they wouldn't act on their impulses for violence or maybe they don't have the impulse for violence to the same extent.
So their underlying psychology is basically the same with the difference perhaps their ability to control themselves but both could rise to positions of power. Absolutely both will rise to positions of power, but they will do so under different societal circumstances.
R.K.: Okay. Now you talk about conscience as a handicap for normals. Could you get in to that?
I.H.: I think when I say a handicap for normal people I have to be very careful about saying that because it is also what makes us human. It's absolutely the conscience and empathy and regard for other people is absolutely what makes us human. The ups with that conscience though and I think it was Martha Stout who said that if you imagine that you are a psychopath and you don't have this handicap of conscience, what are you going to do with it? And of course it's an enormous advantage over normal people. And psychopaths actually know this. They know that they have an enormous advantage.