PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Debbie Dingell, that's a real beauty. So she calls me up like eight months ago. Her husband was ill, long time. But I didn't give him the B treatment. I didn't give him the C or the D. I could have. Nobody would ask, you know. I gave the A-plus treatment. "Take down the flags." "Why are you taking them down?" For ex-Congressman Dingell." "Oh, OK." "Do this. Do that. Do that, for Rotunda, everything." I gave him the everything. That's OK. I don't want anything for it. I don't need anything for anything. She calls me up: "It's the nicest thing that's ever happened. Thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He's looking down. He'd be so thrilled. Thank you so much, sir." I said, "That's OK, don't worry about it." Maybe he's looking up. I don't know.
AMY GOODMAN: So, there he is, President Trump, in Michigan, in Battle Creek, attacking the Congressmember Debbie Dingell and her recently deceased husband John Dingell.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, right. And I know obviously, I know both of them, knew him, know her. Michigan. Yes, that what's surprising? He's crass and cruel, and he's a bully. And if you ever went through elementary school or middle school or high school, you know who the bully is. You know how the bully behaves. That's the way it works for him.
AMY GOODMAN: And you talk about the importance of understanding President Trump. Explain why he would say this in Battle Creek, Michigan. How is Dingell viewed? How is the now-deceased
MICHAEL MOORE: Well, no
AMY GOODMAN: congressman, who he said is looking up from hell?
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes. Well, I think and, actually, I had tickets to that event. But once it was announced that Wednesday was going to be impeachment day, and then I'm waiting 'til that morning to decide: Shall we fly to Michigan? Because we had I actually got tickets, you can sign up and get, under a different name. And so, we were all going to go to Battle Creek, because we all know Battle Creek in Michigan. You know, Battle Creek invented the breakfast, right? Both Kellogg's and Post are there. And so, all your Frosted Flakes are you Frosted Flakes or more Captain Crunch Cap'n Crunch? I'm guessing you're not Cap'n Crunch. OK. So, but we wanted to go there.
So I had friends go. And they said you can't really tell by the sound levels and the way the picture is framed there, but in the greater arena people were stunned. They were like and it's like one of those moments where you say, "Yeah, with some people, there is a bridge too far for them." That was a bridge too far. And they were and the sort of laughter you hear wasn't laughing at that this man is in hell, who just died, but their laughing, it's that nervous laughter of "I can't believe he just said that." And so, more of that, Mr. Trump. More of that. That will help.
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think that's where Christianity Today is coming from, Billy Graham's founded magazine that just said Trump not only should be impeached, but should be ousted?
MICHAEL MOORE: Ousted and jailed, I hope, yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: The most powerful evangelical magazine.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah. No, I think that's what here's what I honestly, I hold a position on the Senate trial that I don't think many people have. But I'll tell you how we can how I think it could possibly happen where he could be removed. All right? First of all, Nancy Pelosi is doing the right thing by holding it up until we have a real court, not a kangaroo court, because we need to be able to call John Bolton as a witness. And John Bolton, I predict, will be the Alexander Butterfield of this trial. Alexander Butterfield was the person that worked in the Nixon White House who just blurted out there I mean, I think they knew ahead of time, but the public didn't know just blurted out, during the impeachment hearings for Nixon, that Nixon had taped every conversation in the Oval Office since the beginning. And the public was like, "What?" And, of course, those tapes helped to bring Nixon down. Bolton knows what's on that national security server, where they were hiding the Ukraine call. Right after the Ukraine call, all the Trump loyalists got together, as we now know, and said, "We've got to place that that's illegal, what just happened. We have to place that on that server, that secure server, so nobody ever finds it."
OK, now let me ask you this, and the people watching: Do you think that's the first time they put something on that server in the last three years? Do you think that perhaps that was just the very first time Trump broke the law, tried to extort somebody, bribe somebody? No. We all know the answer. Even Republicans know it. That's why they don't want the witnesses. They don't want Bolton, because Bolton, even though he's not one of us, he will not lie under oath. He will tell the truth. He will say, "I happen to know we put other things on that server, too." And at that point, the server is going to have to be subpoenaed, and the American people are going to hear what else is on that server. And it's going to make Ukraine look like, you know, "no-kraine." I mean, it's going to be like people the average American is going to stop looking for where Ukraine is on the map, and they're going to start like, they're not going to believe what they're going to hear. That's my so, that can happen. That's why Pelosi and these guys are pushing. And John Roberts, remember, is presiding over this. So...
AMY GOODMAN: The chief justice of the United States, of the U.S. Supreme Court.
MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, of the trial in the Senate. He'll preside over it. Maybe he has some say in this, too. Let's say it happens. Here's what could happen. There's 53 Republicans. Trump can keep the majority of them as his supporters, 33 of them. Thirty-three of the 53 can still, "Yay, Donald!" But we only need 20 to remove him. All right?
I believe this, Amy. OK? And I know this is going to sound crazy, but crazier things have happened in our lifetime. All right? Nobody ever expected Mandela out of prison, let alone become the president of South Africa. I never thought I'd see the Berlin Wall come down. Gay marriage, same-sex marriage? After 2004, when 14 states put it in their constitution making it a crime to be in love with somebody of your gender? No. We have witnessed things that we never thought a black man being elected president of the United States. Never in your life did you think that would happen. You know, 12, 15 years ago, you never would have thought that. So you have to go with me on the possibility of this, of why we should push for a real trial in the Senate, because if it comes out that there's other things on that server, and if we hear what's on that server, he's going to lose 20 senators.
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