Boyko: "How did Moscow lose that trust?"
Ischinger: "On the Russian side, there was Kosovo, and I would agree that the results of the Libya operation were not satisfactory, they led to chaotic situations, they hadn't thought through the steps to take after military action in order to create a more stable Libya. And Iraq was a big mistake. As the German ambassador to Washington, I wrote an article saying this was wrong; it didn't make many friends in the Bush administration. But the Russian reaction to what happened in Ukraine was an overreaction, which led to the last bit of trust disintegrating. Mistakes were made by both sides. How can we glue this thing together again?"
Boyko: "I know you are in favor of dialogue. But NATO negotiates from a position of strength, telling us what it is going to do and doing it. Isn't that approach also ultimately responsible for the present situation?"
Boyko doesn't mention the US-backed coup in Ukraine, nor the presence of fascist militias without which the coup would have failed. This allows Ischinger to find an astonishing rationale for the recent NATO maneuvers in the Baltic States, right on Russia's border:
"There is no hope for meaningful dialogue with Russia if some countries live in real or imagined fear of Russia, so to offer some degree of reassurance to these nations who fear Russia, we create programs of reassurance in the Baltic states and Poland. (Military maneuvers equal 'programs of reassurance'!) But Russia should never regard this as against Russia." (We are not the ones who fear you, it's just those silly Balts and Poles".)
Boyko has a ready response: "Putin acquiesced to the Baltic states joining NATO, but afterward they became even more fearful. So are Russia's own fears of NATO not legitimate?"
Ischinger (inverting the issues): "I'm sure there are legitimate concerns. But what has created the most concern on the Western side is the idea that Russia has some God given right to protect Russian citizens outside of Russia, it's what we call the Putin doctrine. We need to respect borders. If not, all hell breaks lose."
As Boyko sought to protest, Ischinger reminded her that in the crisis over Ukraine, the Russian parliament had authorized the use of force wherever necessary, to which Boyko pointed out that Russia's desire to defend Russian speaking people in neighboring countries is a smaller ambition than that of a country that wants to defend people who defend freedom all over the world.
Ischinger: "Syria will continue to be a problem for some time, a horrible human rights catastrophe and I'm sorry to say, we in the West are wringing our hands over intervention, (referring to R2P, or Right to Protect) so we sit back and let people kill each other."
Never missing a beat, Boyko points out: "The US is providing weapons from across the border with Turkey."
Here the conversation arrives at the crucial point to which it was leading up, Germany's differentiation, which stands for a European differentiation, between its relationship to the US and to Russia: "Russia and the US rely on force, but Russia and Berlin have a different sort of chemistry."
This allows Boyko to ask the crucial question: "What is the role of your country in this crisis and how is it different from the US role?"
And the German diplomat to define Europe's position vis a vis Russia in terms which broke no contradiction:
Germans and Russians have our own history, a terrible history. Germans are absolutely aware that millions of Russians lost their homes and were killed in WW II. Guilt, shame, it is a history which divides us but also brings us together; (as do) geographic proximity, and economic relations. This is a totally different relationship from that of Russia with the big power across the Atlantic. (He could have said the same about Germany") For decades we have been pursuing how to build a cooperative relationship with our big neighbor to the East. THERE CAN BE NO CONSTRUCTIVE ORDER OR PEACE IN EUROPE AGAINST RUSSIA. It has to be organized with Russia. But this requires trust. It's not useful to discuss past mistakes, we have to just accept them and return to the drawing board to rebuild trust. This takes time. Where can we start? Economically? Can we agree that we will not do dangerous things?
Boyko: "Training the military is dangerous""
Ischinger: "Not observing the Russia/Ukraine border, letting arms and men flow across border is also dangerous.
Boyko: "The US has been doing this openly."
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