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Hoekstra: "... were appropriate."
McGovern: "Let's not use these sobriquets. This was torture."
Hoekstra: "No, the Justice Department ... characterized them as legal. To say that you were aghast that we heard, no."
McGovern: "I'm aghast that you were briefed on it. You're supposed to be overseeing these things, you should stop these things. ... You were co-opted."
Hoekstra: "No, we weren't. Republicans and Democrats were fully briefed on these programs and we agreed with them."
I still thought I'd give the former congressman a path out of the pro-torture corner that he was painting himself into, by suggesting that he might be simply embarrassed that he had been misled by the CIA and the Bush administration, that he had been kept in the dark about the darkest of the dark side, but Hoekstra just kept painting...
McGovern: "You were lied to and you're ashamed to admit that you were lied to."Hoekstra: "I'm not ashamed that I was lied to. I'm admitting that these programs were briefed to us. I've talked to my staff going back and said after this 'revelation' came out ...how much of what is in this Dianne Feinstein report, this partisan report, this Democrat report, how much did we know? Ninety to 95 percent."
McGovern: "Oh, my God! What a terrible admission! Aren't you ashamed?"
Hoekstra: "No, I'm not ashamed."
McGovern: "My God!"
Then, Hoekstra tried to suggest that I was being disloyal to my former colleagues at the CIA as if the few senior officials who pushed for the torture and the few -- mostly contractors -- who carried it out were representative of most CIA personnel among whom I had served for 27 years. Hoekstra was waving a red flag, so I played the bull, forsaking the usually obligatory deference and politeness. I let him have it. (Sometimes it doesn't help to be Irish.)
Hoekstra: "I reached a different conclusion as did many of your colleagues at the CIA ..."McGovern: "These are not my colleagues! These are thugs hired by Dick Cheney!"
Hoekstra: "These are people you walked away from. These are heroes for America..."
McGovern: "These are thugs headed by Dick Cheney!"
Hoekstra: "...who are protecting America."
That was when the host politely brought the program to a conclusion. [For this exchange, see minutes 8:23 to 10:41 of Part Three, though I think the entire program is worth watching. Part One, Part Two and Part Three.]
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