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BEN EHRENREICH: Yeah, I don't" The U.S. has been quite good historically at fomenting coups
MARC STEINER: Absolutely.
BEN EHRENREICH: "At toppling governments in lots of different ways. What the U.S. has not been very good at is fomenting mass movements. Because for thousands and sometimes millions of people to come out day after day and risk their safety and risk their freedom, take something other than bribes from the U.S. Embassy" And so I have a hard time accepting that kind of analysis in a place like Hong Kong. I think that when there are mass protests like these and government's reacting with extraordinary force, then no matter where you stand on the left, it is worth listening very carefully and not immediately assuming conspiracy intervention, et cetera, even if that is often the case in many countries around the world.
And from everything I've read and everything I understand about what's happening in Hong Kong, Hong Kong is one of the most unequal cities in the world. It has some of the highest housing costs in the world, has some of the longest working hours in the world. So, in addition to the immediate demands of the protests in Hong Kong having to do with pulling the extradition bill, people are out there in the streets again and again, day after day because they are desperate, because their lives are completely out of their control. And I think one of the things that's been really interesting, one of the commonalities: three of the places that have had these kinds of strongest and deepest protests have been Hong Kong, Chile and Lebanon; all countries with really long and deep histories of precisely this kind of neoliberal austerity and privatization. Of course, we know the history in Chile. There we did have a coup that the U.S. backed
MARC STEINER: Absolutely.
BEN EHRENREICH: "And an experiment of several decades in neoliberalism backed by Pinochet's death squads. And all of these are countries where not only have there been extreme forms of austerity and inequality, but in which space itself is more and more privatized. Beirut is just an incredibly privatized city. And from everything I've been reading about the protests there, one of the things that's been most inspirational to people has been taking those spaces back and creating a kind of radical public that has not been able to exist there before. And I think that's something anybody who's spent time in the streets in protests knows that's what happens. Radical forms of solidarity are built in the streets during protests. And I think these protest movements have been able to go much deeper in places where that kind of radical solidarity was so desperately needed.
MARC STEINER: If you look at some of these things that are happeninghappening in Sudan, that are happening in Haiti and the Western European demonstrationsmany of them are farmers who want to be able to use the chemicals they want on their land and don't want to be told what to do. And that's part of their push as well. And you have all the other ones we've talked about and the ones we have not talked about, India and Iran and other places. So when you look at this, just before we close, what I said in the last part of my opening is that in some ways these rebellions and demonstrations around the world could be defining what a struggle looks like in the 21st century for a new kind of world. So how do you begin to connect those dots? Where do you see the commonality and where do you see the contradictions?
BEN EHRENREICH: Really the contradictions are still quite large. And I think it's pretty hard to convince a protestor in Ecuador or in Bolivia that they have a lot in common with a French or a Dutch farmer. But I think once you start looking beyond national boundaries, it becomes clear that in all of these places people are rebelling against the world that we live in now, which is one in which we have these absolutely corrupt and venal elites controlling society after society with really no challenges. I mean, in our own countrywithin the U.S. of coursewe've had like two centrist parties battling it out for years and without any fundamental challenges to the momentum that our society is going in. And this is true in many other places as well.
And I think the challenge looking forwardand this is made more and more acute by climate change, which of course does not respect ordersthe challenge is going to be putting these struggles together and forming kinds of solidarity that are both uncomfortable and are new to us; that look beyond national borders to what we all have in common, what we need to do together if we're going to make the kind of changes we need in our lives.
MARC STEINER: Well, Ben, there's so much more I want to talk about with you. But we'll do it over a period of time here and kind of look at this in some greater depth. Appreciate the piece you just wrote, Global Rebellion Against Neoliberalism that appeared in The Nation, and the other work you're writing. Ben, thank you so much for taking your time today and we'll talk soon.
BEN EHRENREICH: Thanks so much, Marc. Would be a pleasure to come back.
MARC STEINER: My pleasure. And I'm Marc Steiner here for The Real News Network. Thank you all for joining us. Please let us know what you think. We've got to get this dialogue going together. Take care.
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