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Podcast    H2'ed 11/23/11

Pepper Spray Developer and Expert Witness: UC Davis Police, if Civilian Would Be Arrested, Charged with Using Deadly Weapon

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Broadcast 11/23/2011 at 22:25:58 (86 Listens, 44 Downloads, 646 Itunes)
The Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show Podcast

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please attribute quotes from this interview to Rob Kall, Host of Bottom up Radio WNJC 1360 AM and publisher, and link to this podcast.

    A full transcript of this interview will be available soon. 

Kamran Loghman's Bio
Kamran Loghman is a nationally recognized expert in federal court proceedings  regarding  chemical exposure. He is the former President and Chief Executive Officer of Zarc International, Inc. (ZARC) 1988 to 2005. ZARC is the manufacturer of various OC and Pepper Spray devices for use by law enforcement. ZARC's client list comprise of elite law enforcement and military agencies including the US Air Force, Federal Bureau of Investigation, US Secret Service, US Marshals Service, US Drug Enforcement Administration, U.S. Border Patrol, Department of Homeland Security and U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Services. Mr. Loghman closely managed technical projects and teams of scientists including toxicologist, chemist, engineers and researchers from onceptualization to final product and manufacturing. He holds  various patents in the areas of OC chemical formulation, liquid projectile and  molded dispersion methods for OC delivery systems. He provided technical assistance to the FBI in its study of chemical agents and OC (1989) and assisted California Department of Justice in Sacramento, Fire Arms Program, Division of Law Enforcement in its development of OC specifications, standards and application protocols for use by California law enforcement (1991-1992). He has assisted GIAT (France) regarding development of rapid fire OC weapon systems (1994) and the US Army Dugway Proving Ground in the chemical and biological evaluation of OC-based products for use in riot control. He has consulted Lockheed Martin in development of OC delivery systems (1999 and 2004). He has supervised  and managed various government contracts, reviewed agency use of force policy and responded to technical inquiries. He has been familiar with various uses of force policies including the FBI, US Marshall Service, US Border Patrol and others, in order to facilitate procurement at ZARC and in order to develop training guidelines (1991 to 2000). He has authored two definitive technical and training manuals on chemical agents and its application

Raw, very rough notes from interview
Pres and CEO of Zarc wrote first training manuals, instrumental in certifying 4000 law enforcement officers.

Capsicum is the name for Chili Peppers, there are 300 varieties.
Oleoresin, take the oil and different extracts out-- that process is used in the food industry-- tomato sauces, bologna,
Later on active ingredients-- capsacin or capsacinoids-- developedinto use for pepper spray. Hotter peppers have more capsacinoids.

The liquid that is in the cannister and the gases are different-- extract.

The active ingredient is based or derived from food stuff, but by the time it is packaged as a spray, there are too many chemicals...

I haven't given an interview on pepper spray for five years now.

I looked at the video and almost came to tears. I looked at them and thought of my children

Like being sprayed like insects.
Totally inappropriate and improper
Ihave been to court numerous times, but I have never seen anything like this.

Copyrighted Image? DMCA

There are different scenarios.

The use of pepper spray was not justified--- I've never seen any kind of policy or training where this kind of use was

The use of pepper spray was justified only when there was such.

This was a high volume cannister.

Standard duty pepper spray is 3" long. That is very dangerous at close range.
What is the danger-- high pressure liquid is entering people's eyes.
You are getting more dosages than you need. These kids don't know how to decontaminate themselves. For example- they can be sleeping
Same thing for respiration--
They were exposed
Can this affect them 10-20 years from now. Some people are negatively prone to
When you don't use something properly, you highly increase the
Subject to civil suit.

It is my civic duty--- police departments hear loud and clear is not design designed to shut up people if they want

it is used only when somebody is a threat to a p olice officer or to bystander.

I am not going to blame the police officer.
The lack of leadership shows that people do use policies.
They know very well
There were other police officers there. Why didn't they stop him.

If Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi were walking around you didn't like what they were saying, you could spray them.

What they used is for crowds, like in egypt.

Any chemical that is foreign to the human

These students are not decontaminated--

What kind of after-effects and side

The training manuals... say what pepper spray is all about.
The use of pepper spray was not justified. It is not grey. it is

Example of case.


drunk driver-- complying but name calling.

Spray but do not do de-contamination. Within 15 minutes, give decontamination.
Has been around since 1980.

Everyone of them have to be trained and every one of them have to be sprayed in the face.

Pepper spray, justified, is a good product, better than using a baton or gun.

Improper use of pepper spray was the cause of death.
Pepper spray causes hard time breathing.
People have died from positional asphyxiation.

Ophthalmologist-- two concerns-- pressure-- hydraulic needle effect-- can cause conjuvitis and inflammation. Second-- most important part-- has the individual been decontaminated?  
Did you decontaminate your eyes

physical eye damage, cataracts,
There has never been studies in which a person does not get decontaminated...
To be honest with you, who knows?

What is proper decontamination?
They need to have some sort of goggles, so it doesn't hit the eyes directly.
Use a gas mask, like white paper that you can use for a dollar.
Get to the first water and start washing your face really good. It usually takes 15 to 20 minutes.

tear gas: orthochlorobenzomalononitrile

There are tear gases and other types of chemicals-- the smoke that you see with riot--
those kind of chemicals require soda ash or baking soda-- can be washed with alchohol or water and soap. Also wash your hair.

Do not touch your private area when you have been touched by paper spray because-- avoid any mucous membrane.

I want the public to be informed that they have to stand for their rights and a loud message has to be given to the leadership that you cannot use this kind of force to shut them down. It is used specifically by police for people who are a physical threat to police or bystanders.

Any feelings of conscience, having been involved in the development of this?
No. We've probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Rob: What about t he use of Pepper spray in other nations and by the milItary.
Are there rules of war, and how do they compare with how it was used by UC Davis police.

Kamran: It is used by various countries around the world.
The military can only use it for protection of bases and not in war since it is against Geneva Convention.

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Rob Kall is an award winning journalist, inventor, software architect, connector and visionary. His work and his writing have been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, ABC, the HuffingtonPost, Success, Discover and other media. 

Check out his platform at

He is the author of The Bottom-up Revolution; Mastering the Emerging World of Connectivity  

He's given talks and workshops to Fortune 500 execs and national medical and psychological organizations, and pioneered first-of-their-kind conferences in Positive Psychology, Brain Science and Story. He hosts some of the world's smartest, most interesting and powerful people on his Bottom Up Radio Show, and founded and publishes one of the top Google- ranked progressive news and opinion sites,

more detailed bio: 

Rob Kall has spent his adult life as an awakener and empowerer-- first in the field of biofeedback, inventing products, developing software and a music recording label, MuPsych, within the company he founded in 1978-- Futurehealth, and founding, organizing and running 3 conferences: Winter Brain, on Neurofeedback and consciousness, Optimal Functioning and Positive Psychology (a pioneer in the field of Positive Psychology, first presenting workshops on it in 1985) and Storycon Summit Meeting on the Art Science and Application of Story-- each the first of their kind.  Then, when he found the process of raising people's consciousness and empowering them to take more control of their lives  one person at a time was too slow, he founded which has been the top search result on Google for the terms liberal news and progressive opinion for several years. Rob began his Bottom-up Radio show, broadcast on WNJC 1360 AM to Metro Philly, also available on iTunes, covering the transition of our culture, business and world from predominantly Top-down (hierarchical, centralized, authoritarian, patriarchal, big)  to bottom-up (egalitarian, local, interdependent, grassroots, archetypal feminine and small.) Recent long-term projects include a book, Bottom-up-- The Connection Revolution, debillionairizing the planet and the Psychopathy Defense and Optimization (more...)

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