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The Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show Podcast

Pamela Jaye Smith; Mythic, Archetypal & Symbolic Aspects of Evil, Bad Guys, Sociopaths and the Dark Side

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PAMELA JAYE SMITH is an Author, international Consultant/Speaker, and award-winning Producer/Director with over thirty years experience in features, TV, music videos, commercials, documentaries, corporate, and military films, and web series.


Co-founder Alpha Babe Academy


My Rough interview notes-- mostly my questions

How does mythology handle evil?

What's an archetype?

Are there evil or psychopathic archetypes?

The Chakra system

Root chakra characteristics. 

    symbol is snake

The root chakra is also tied to kundalini 

Andromeda and Perseus-- plays out kundalini energy story

When I think of myths I think of stories that have developed from accretions in culture of a long period of time, so the origins are forgotten. 

Folk tales


Myths-- universal truths

 A real myth will be true on seven levels?

When they severed earth from sky, how the Human Mind Shapes Myth, by Barber and Barber

Hercules story goes up and down the chakra system. 

Is there a chakra pattern that exists, for stories, like the hero's journey story?

Oddyseus, Labors of Hercules-- do that chakra run. Moves: Apocalypse now, Groundhog's Day, Jacob's ladder and Under Siege. 

How would that work in Groundhog's day?

And that's a way to look at the character arc. 

Are there examples of psychopaths and sociopaths in mythology. 

Based on psychopaths as someone born bad, without capacity for caring"

   Psychopaths are at root chakra

Mindless demons-- orcs-- mindly creatures intent upon destruction

Mid-eastern stories-- bad Djins 


sirens in Oddysey-- all they are after is destruction

rivana in hindu steals sita

Medusa  greek glance turns someone to stone

Minotaur intent upon destruction and killing

These are usually described without a lot of character depth

      back story with medusa and minotaur (illicit mating of queen and white bull)

Atrius in the Atreides family in greek myth

         Atrius cut up his brother's two sons, put them in a stew and fed them to his brother. 

          Titus Andronicus

Now let's talk about sociopaths-- 


The most dangerous kind of person has gotten up the Ajna center-- the highest chakra. 

You're saying that the most dangerous ones who have lived in all the chakral centers. 


   Story-wise-- jeddi knight training, Lord of Rings, Gandalf and Sauron-- decision to go to the dark side or the light. 

Those who turn to the dark side cannot embrace of or doing good for others. 

Need for a test to identify them-- could be a situation where they respond selfishly or nobly. 

Are you saying that taking away sports and artistic training will increase psychopathic and sociopathic behavior? 

    For narcissism and sociopaths. 

With the school budgets cutting arts and sports, perhaps the value system is creating more sociopaths and narcissists?

Birth2work Elaine Scott

Our schools, families, churches and communities are turning out narcissists and sociopaths-- what are they doing that is turning them out?

   consumer culture-- having and getting are better than being and doing, passing better than learning-- 

Difference between Psychopaths and sociopaths and narcissists, mythologically. 

Tribal, individual and group consciousness Indra's net of gems. 

narcissists are stuck at individual level. 

USA is stuck at individual level

Are there examples of nations that have moved through to the next level.

Russia was stuck at tribal-- moved to individual but snapped back to tribal, with oligarch instead of apparatchiks. 

Communism, in it's idea is group, but practice, is not. 

I'm getting the impression that you're having a hard time coming up with a nation that reached the group consciousness level. 

How about the greeks, the athenians with the early democracy?

Singapore, a city state-- 

What would be the positive group consciousness characteristics of Great Britain?

Interconnectedness of empire.

the legal system was fair, rule of law, instead of rule of one individual-- governor or king or local sheriff. 

Philipino observation: -- Britsh brought us law, Spanish brought us Religion and US brought us Coca Cola.

Denmark-- from vikings to happiest people in the world. 

I can't do this interview without getting your light on Narcissus and Narcissism. 

How is the story of Narcissus included in mythology's bigger picture?

The developmental aspects of narcissism makes me think of another developmental myth-- the Oedipal stage- and the Oedipal story. 


Dweller on the threshold and the Shadow

  • Three levels of the dark side-- 
  • dweller on the theshold-- personal problems you have within you. 
  • Dark forces-- impersonal-- gravity, time, natural disasters
  • Dark Brotherhood/sisterhood-- supra-personal dark side level.

What is the history or roots of the three levels of the dark side. Hindu, vedic, Pali, Theosophy. 

That also involves spiritualism too. 

The group dynamics?

Solar Plexus Split

Chakra systems-- China, India, Tibet, maybe egypt, sumerian, mesopotamian

Gilgamesh was a narcissist, sociopath

Got into contest with Inkidu, a mythological person living out in the wilderness-- 

natural, animal-communicating, simple living country guy-- 

Fought, then became friends. 

So Gilgamesh started as a Narcissist and evolved to become a good man. 

Is Gilgamesh the oldest story known

Pali stories may go back 6000. 

  vedic/hindu  the Mahabarata-- 

I've always felt that 

Can you talk about the shadow. And everybody has a shadow self. 

It's also been said that part of growing up is learning to know, embrace and deal with the shadow.

Heat-- movie-- 

Twins embodiment in story. 

What lesson from mythology is there for dealing with psychopaths?

    stop them at lower levels.

Sociopaths-- change the reward and punishment system by which they are affected-- 

   as long as winner takes all, why wouldn't they"

Narcissism-- look at it as a stage of development-- get them to move to next stage-- engagement with others. Is there a mythic story that shows this-- 

    Wake-up call-- Moses-- thought he was a prince, all about him, then he discovers he is part of a different group.

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Rob Kall has spent his adult life as an awakener and empowerer-- first in the field of biofeedback, inventing products, developing software and a music recording label, MuPsych, within the company he founded in 1978-- Futurehealth, and founding, organizing and running 3 conferences: Winter Brain, on Neurofeedback and consciousness, Optimal Functioning and Positive Psychology (a pioneer in the field of Positive Psychology, first presenting workshops on it in 1985) and Storycon Summit Meeting on the Art Science and Application of Story-- each the first of their kind.  Then, when he found the process of raising people's consciousness and empowering them to take more control of their lives  one person at a time was too slow, he founded which has been the top search result on Google for the terms liberal news and progressive opinion for several years. Rob began his Bottom-up Radio show, broadcast on WNJC 1360 AM to Metro Philly, also available on iTunes, covering the transition of our culture, business and world from predominantly Top-down (hierarchical, centralized, authoritarian, patriarchal, big)  to bottom-up (egalitarian, local, interdependent, grassroots, archetypal feminine and small.) Recent long-term projects include a book, Bottom-up-- The Connection Revolution, debillionairizing the planet and the Psychopathy Defense and Optimization Project. 

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