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Podcast    H2'ed 4/25/15

Jeremy Heimans; What New Power Looks Like

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Broadcast 4/25/2015 at 21:34:41 (32 Listens, 21 Downloads, 2287 Itunes)
The Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show Podcast

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Jeremy Heimans is co-founder of and was a co-founder of, a global civic organization that operates in 15 languages and claims over forty million members in 194 countries.

He recently gave a TED talk on New Power that's had over a million views and he co-authored an article in the Harvard Business Review, Understanding New Power.

My Very Rough Interview Notes

Welcome to the show.

Bottom-up Show background

Rob: Please explain the difference between Old Power and New power.

Co-authored Harvard Business Review article with Henry Timms

Old power is like a currency-- something you hoard.

New power is flowing like a current-- something you channel-- most powerful when it surges, like water or electricity.

Old power is held by a few. New power is constituted by many.

Old power downloads, new power uploads.

Rob: You refer to the value of participation: "We believe that lasting change doesn't come from the top down -- it comes when people, acting together, have a sense of their own agency.

Young people are growing up in a world where they feel they have the means for participation.

Rob: So agency is a sense of personal power and access to power.

Rob: You say: We believe that lasting change doesn't come from the top down -- it comes when people, acting together, have a sense of their own agency. Could you expound on this.

We are at the beginning of a very steep curve.

expressions of new power become more enduring and more powerful.

People dismiss the Arab spring"

Rob: We're not really at the very beginning-- already so much as been effected.

Rob: Can you talk more about what you mean by Widespread Connectivity

I was an activist from a very young age (8 years old)

tried to stop the first gulf war with a fax machine. That was a hopelessly constrained, throttling tool. Peer to peer is a game changer.

Rob: Can explain what you mean by peer to peer?

USed to be you went to a hotel-- Now Airbnb allows peoplel connecting to each other. People no longer need the guy with the key. We don't need to build a single new square foot of real estate. Peer models are everything from Wikipedia to open source software to models that don't depend on a platform owner.

Rob: can you talk about New Power values?

Here's what the emerging values are looking like:

governance and decision making--

old-- formal decision making

new-- informal, opt-in decision making-- like Avaaz. An example of networked governing. People opt in to different kinds of campaigns.

Participation and collaboration vs competition as a value-- think of the ideology as greed is good. New power models are rewarding people who are not effective competitors but good collaborators.

Professionalization and specialization-- features of the 20th century vs Hybrid makers-- young people want to make their own products and put them on the market-- We do it ourselves-- the cultural value of do it yourself

Transparency vs. confidentiality-- ethically, in the new power world you are expected to be as transparent as possible.

Rob: What about privacy-- what Snowden revealed was being violated. How does the new power generation feel about privacy?

Rob: and you talk about different models of new vs old power:

New Power model: mass participation or peer coordination

Uber is a network of users and drivers. A car company isn't

four quadrants

castles, connectors, crowds and cheerleaders

orgs or businesses which are traditional models

Rob: You talk about how new power is changing the relationships between organizations and institutions.

trust in institutions is declining--

less respectful of, less reliant on institutions.

Rob: you talk about how old style power orgs must "grapple with risks associated with loosening control."

TED moved it's model and made it much more open-- created Ted X, put talks on-line, has a community,

An organization that's transitioning to a blended power model.

Rob: Let's talk about that blended power model. It seems that's an important idea right now.

if you're an old power org, you're going to need a base because you can't buy your way to power anymore.

Refers to SOPA bills in congress, how google and other companies

Rob: Can you talk about "Old Power pushback"

Edward Snowden NSA tussle is an example of old power biting back.

Snowden turned to Wikileaks, an ultimate new power, for help.

Rob: How do you connect soft power and hard power with new power and old power?

Soft power and hard power apply to the exercise of power by states.

New power addresses a different arena than just state influence.

Rob: Obama and power--

press was elected using new power-- crowd funding, grass-roots and local way,

In office he faces the old power super structures- arcane old rules-- build for the 18th century.

Rob: What happens when a a New power user gets power?

This is a story that's unfolding a lot. The challenge becomes, if you're an UBER and you use these new power models and start acting in an old power way-- people have potentially two reactions-- they'll stick with you if the service is better than all others, but if there is a service is better than Uber, people and drivers will abandon the network.

Rob: You say:

What do you mean channel your harshest critic?

Rob: You talk about engagement cultures: What are engagement cultures?

Rob: ideas on how to face, fix and change problems with government.

feed people's desire to participate more beyond elections every few years.

Technology tools hopefully over time will find ways to engage people more in government.

Rob: Tell us about

incubate -- new models that fill gaps -- all out LGBT org

climate change

work with established orgs that have established missions

gun violence

make technology that gives people the tools to do that kind of work.

Rob: how would people tap the power of purpose

org, entrepreneur

Rob: it also sounds that purpose sounds like a venture capital org, not necessarily for money, for empowering change

a mothership for movement building

Rob: And how about Avaaz?

a way of helping align the values and view of the world's people

Rob: you started being an activist at the age of eight. How do you see getting young children and generations today getting more involved today?

example of an 11 year old who led movement to stop

Rob: but how do you even get kids to think about the idea that they have the power to make the kinds of changes that she did.

more and more young people are getting.

Rob: can you talk a bit more about old power attempting to corrupt new power?

government hiring people to affect and manipulate conversations.

Rob: What are some of the really far out-- 30-5o years from now, that people say you're crazy to describe.

decentralized distributed energy that people sell energy back into the grid, leading to a de-carbonized world

Governance in 50 years could look radically different

finance could change in a radical way. We become less reliant on big money and could become.

Do you think it will possible to make big projects happen with new power, without big orgs and money.

In general the dynamics are changing.

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Rob Kall Social Media Pages: Facebook page url on login Profile not filled in       Twitter page url on login Profile not filled in       Linkedin page url on login Profile not filled in       Instagram page url on login Profile not filled in

Rob Kall is an award winning journalist, inventor, software architect, connector and visionary. His work and his writing have been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, ABC, the HuffingtonPost, Success, Discover and other media. 

Check out his platform at

He is the author of The Bottom-up Revolution; Mastering the Emerging World of Connectivity  

He's given talks and workshops to Fortune 500 execs and national medical and psychological organizations, and pioneered first-of-their-kind conferences in Positive Psychology, Brain Science and Story. He hosts some of the world's smartest, most interesting and powerful people on his Bottom Up Radio Show, and founded and publishes one of the top Google- ranked progressive news and opinion sites,

more detailed bio: 

Rob Kall has spent his adult life as an awakener and empowerer-- first in the field of biofeedback, inventing products, developing software and a music recording label, MuPsych, within the company he founded in 1978-- Futurehealth, and founding, organizing and running 3 conferences: Winter Brain, on Neurofeedback and consciousness, Optimal Functioning and Positive Psychology (a pioneer in the field of Positive Psychology, first presenting workshops on it in 1985) and Storycon Summit Meeting on the Art Science and Application of Story-- each the first of their kind.  Then, when he found the process of raising people's consciousness and empowering them to take more control of their lives  one person at a time was too slow, he founded which has been the top search result on Google for the terms liberal news and progressive opinion for several years. Rob began his Bottom-up Radio show, broadcast on WNJC 1360 AM to Metro Philly, also available on iTunes, covering the transition of our culture, business and world from predominantly Top-down (hierarchical, centralized, authoritarian, patriarchal, big)  to bottom-up (egalitarian, local, interdependent, grassroots, archetypal feminine and small.) Recent long-term projects include a book, Bottom-up-- The Connection Revolution, debillionairizing the planet and the Psychopathy Defense and Optimization (more...)

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