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Podcast    H4'ed 9/22/14

Archetypal, Mythic Strong Women and Patriarchy-- A conversation with Jean Shinoda Bolen

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Broadcast 9/22/2014 at 14:09:56 (105 Listens, 54 Downloads, 2292 Itunes)
The Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show Podcast

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Jean Shinoda Bolen, M.D. is a psychiatrist (Jungian archetypes) and author. Bolen has written several books on mythology and the archetypal psychology of women and men. She's on the show to discuss her new book, Artemis, The Indomitable Spirit in Everywoman.

Rough Interview Notes

Your book is titled Artemis, but most of the book is about Atalanta. Why?

Artemis is goddess of the hunt of the hunt and goddess of the moon--

had egalitarian relations with men-- a Katniss Everdeen of modern times.

As an archetype she's a potential pattern in all of us.

Atalanta is an amazing mortal-- had a big place in greek mythology-- two major stories in the realm of the Greeks and the Romans-- a woman who resembles Artemis the Goddess--

It's a wonderful book and I really got a lot out of it.

What's the short description of this book

fundamental aspect of each activist

When you recognize something and said, "It's not fair" this Artemis energy-- can look at what needs to what needs to be done and actively

Atalanta was suckled and raised by a mother bear-- one of the symbols of Artemis.

Rob: what is mean being raised by a mother bear?

indomitable means untamed and unsubdued.

Same as raised by mother nature.

If a girl is in a dysfunctional family, maybe abused, and she goes out in mother nature, and finds solace, often with a dog or horse" there's a part of her that remains strong and loving

What about mothers who are like mother bears--

mothers of myth couldn't protect their children-- Demeter-- mother of Persephone couldn't do anything about Persephone being abducted into the underworld.

Eve Ensler had to see rape in congo before she could speak out.

The mother who is archetypally who is with the powerful man will not stand up for abused children" Protective women usually have mother bear, Artemis qualities.

raped or abused woman-- indomitable part not touched

"What shall we do with our one wild and precious life?" Mary Oliver

Rape Culture?

Zeuss as the archetype as the philanderer (as perceived in Gods in Every Man)

Second generation Olympians were all his kids-- the results of his seductions or rapes. He was a rapist.

Ancient gods of ancient Greece raped everyone except for the three virgins.

That is the basis of the mythology of western civilization. And I didn't see it until I read Eve Ensler--

Narendra Modi talked about the shamefulness of India having a rape culture.

Rob: Greek and Roman mythologies are what civilization are built upon.

Democracy applied to men only. Women were the property of men and fathers could sell a non-virgin daughter into slavery-- if she was raped or if he molested her. Women could not testify in the courts.

Rob: You write in the book that there have been matriarchal cultures

Maria Gimbutas-- there were female gods.

Merlin Stone-- When God Was a WOman-- described time when feminine was valued

For 5000 to 25,000 prior to patriarchy we had a mother culture.

Mother earth brought everything through her body. Women were the creators-- it's a miracle how a baby comes out of a woman.

Patriarchy devalues what women can do.

Riane Eisler wrote Chalice and the Blade--

Potential of patriarchy coming to an end, in the future, of not matriarchy, but to have divinity being both masculine and feminine.

Most values of men-- since Christianity, men were made in the image of god--

Two creation of women stories--

first-- in Genesis-- Yahweh creates male and female in one version

In another-- God created everybody and talks to Adam about how he needs a companion-- out of Adam's rib.

Mother divinity-- the great goddess-- she wasn't just one supermom-- every place had their own name for the mother

Seen as a triple goddess- maiden, mother, crone-- The moon cycle-- The feminine was seen in nature-- the worship of her was because she was all around in nature.

An archetype is an inherent pattern that helps us recognize things.

Elusinian mysteries. for 2500 years prior to Christianity-- went into an altered state, through ritual and no longer feared death-- identified with persephone, who went into the underworld and came back--

Great mother-- everything came from the earth and went back.

There were religions that honored the feminine and the mystery of life and death and creation was seen as part of her.

Rianney Eisler talks,, in the Chalice and Blade, there seems to be a more egalitarian element-.

We're in a tilt/ teeter-totter time-- you can put your weight in one side or the other and it tilts where you put your weight. And we are between destruction and evolving-- and empowering women.

Life changes for families when mother and father are equal.

Rob: Quiver movement-- home schooling

hasidic orthodox-- Patriarchal traditional values-- having as many children, schooling is religious and don't educate girls beyond a certain point-

Jean: As a new wife the have to shave their head--

Rob: What's the symbolism of that--

Feminism-- power of feminine-- Samson had his hair cut-- become more and more anonymous.

Rob: Abandoned child-- if from the moment you are born your value is based on how you are going to serve-- to acquire what the father wants--

Whenever a boy or girl is born into the world and is not seen as a unique individual, but primarily to serve the ambition of the parent-- that's a narcissistic system-- in which the narcissism of the parent is primary. That's the case with patriarchy.

Rob: Tell me more about narcissism and patriarchy.

Narcissism and co-dependency are related-- if their identity is in relationship to someone else-- that's what patriarchy does to daughters-- you belong to the father until you belong to the husband-- it's usually, always to serve. As the mother y our whole value is to having male babies

A culture that believes in each human being having innate worth is different.


A Patriarchal culture trains boys to be narcissistic and girls to be co-dependent.

Rob: How does that manifest

most seen in middle east. Women's education denied them, independent thinking not allowed.

We each have our own individuation and desire to develop fully.

Atalanta myth-- Patriarchy is tough on boys-- if you are a boy and have qualities that are considered feminine-- talents, tenderheartedness, intuition and feeling-- on the school yard you are acculturate to suppress empathic compassion. So you become the spectator to the narcissist who is feeling more powerful because he gets to beat up someone else. Families expect you to/

Patriarchal discourages or punishes empathic compassion in young men.

Discovered in WW2 that 80% of soldiers would not kill--

Rob: HOw does that affect men and boys?

If you are trained to not feel because that's considered feminine-- now that we know about brain physiology at well-- patriarchy is basically a pyramid-- maintaining a position at the top-- that is what is rewarded. What do you have to surpress in your self to stay at the top-- the whole right brain--

The right brain is where art, music, metaphor, compassion and feelings reside, often without words. Becoming an alpha male at the top of the pyramid-- you have an asymmetrical brain-- smaller right brain.

Women respond to stress differently than men

Tend and befriend Oxytocin response enhanced by estrogen

Sally Taylor at UCLA

talk about what's going on, empathic listening, looking for solutions.

much more natural collaboration and cooperation

women go home and want to hug their children, to bond more and take care of the nest.

rather than male Fight or flight testosterone

goes home and wants to be left alone

Rob: Yet there are men who can have oxytocin responses and women who can be like alpha males


has been able to keep her marriage, friends,

Jean-- about two thirds of gender are like the stereotype.

Men have connection with Demeter-- mother archetype

Margaret Thatcher as a Zeuss woman-- power over-- was as every bit a

Rob: Where would psychopaths fit into the mythic realm?

any archetype-- archetypes are attracted to power

we have an educational system that is focused on IQ but there's a whole dimension of EQ-- emotional intelligence-- learn through honest communication, developing the understanding of what is like to be in the other person's situation.

Artemis is the archetype who says it's n to fair and goes out and stops something that is harming vulnerable people-- and some men have this same archetype. -- who are saving rain forests and rescuing animals--

Quote on Grassroots P 196

Study-- over 40 yearsHtun and Weldon study in American Political Science Review, 2012

When there are strong feminist movements, as in India, right now-- they are combatting the rape culture-- then, the men at the top do the right thing.

Laws may be passed but they are not supported until there is strong bottom-up energy=--that's when the males at the top start to do the right thing.

Shadows-- each of us have shadows-- the person who can aim for i t, see it clearly and stop it-- it's what's going on in the world and also what's going on in the individual-- will silence be consent or will you speak up for the artemis archetype in your self--

hero's journey-- voluntary journey--

Heroinic Journey-- atalanta didn't ask to be dropped on a mountaintop, or to be descriminated against-- it's the journey that starts with circumstances that you didn't want to happen-- so now what-- Atalanta's story of having to make decisions on the drama of life is really the story that we all have-- a soul journey-

Campbell made the point that we each have our own mythic journey to live out--

These often start out with dysfunctional family--

This is the great work for each of us. How do we shape the story by our choices--


5th world conference on women

When and where will that conference be?

Jean-- that will only happen from the bottom-up.

Prim Minister Modi" 2018,

women saving the world

Urgent Message from Mother: Gather the Women, Save the World

Blocked in UN-- by US, some countries in EU-- in 2012--

Rob: What's your take on ISIL

I'm so glad it's not called ISIS, because she was the Greek Goddess who gathered dismembered pieces and put them back-- and ISIL is the opposite.

I don't think the solution is in military might. It has to involve the women

These are all fratricidal wars-- whether palestine, syria, Sunnis or Shias-- very much like 100 years wars of religion-- theological based-- goes back to the basic fratricidal story of Abel and Cain-- we are living.

We can do it differently and I know its not possible unless women are involved-- it was women who took over the governance of Rwanda--

UN Security COuncil 1325-- if every conflict had women involved as it was building up and at the peace table, then solutions would be different"

Rob: Fratricide of Abel and Cain--

first family of the bible-- one was tiller of the field and the other raised cattle or sheep. Each young man brought the best that he grown or nurtured to yahweh and he had disdain for the gifts of the field-- Cain's was disparaged-- The one who was disdained killed his brother.

What if bother were given their due and differences were valued.

Nomadic peoples came down with horses and sky gods to dominate goddess worshipping people--

Rob: Nomadic people were predators

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Rob Kall is an award winning journalist, inventor, software architect, connector and visionary. His work and his writing have been featured in the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, CNN, ABC, the HuffingtonPost, Success, Discover and other media. 

Check out his platform at

He is the author of The Bottom-up Revolution; Mastering the Emerging World of Connectivity  

He's given talks and workshops to Fortune 500 execs and national medical and psychological organizations, and pioneered first-of-their-kind conferences in Positive Psychology, Brain Science and Story. He hosts some of the world's smartest, most interesting and powerful people on his Bottom Up Radio Show, and founded and publishes one of the top Google- ranked progressive news and opinion sites,

more detailed bio: 

Rob Kall has spent his adult life as an awakener and empowerer-- first in the field of biofeedback, inventing products, developing software and a music recording label, MuPsych, within the company he founded in 1978-- Futurehealth, and founding, organizing and running 3 conferences: Winter Brain, on Neurofeedback and consciousness, Optimal Functioning and Positive Psychology (a pioneer in the field of Positive Psychology, first presenting workshops on it in 1985) and Storycon Summit Meeting on the Art Science and Application of Story-- each the first of their kind.  Then, when he found the process of raising people's consciousness and empowering them to take more control of their lives  one person at a time was too slow, he founded which has been the top search result on Google for the terms liberal news and progressive opinion for several years. Rob began his Bottom-up Radio show, broadcast on WNJC 1360 AM to Metro Philly, also available on iTunes, covering the transition of our culture, business and world from predominantly Top-down (hierarchical, centralized, authoritarian, patriarchal, big)  to bottom-up (egalitarian, local, interdependent, grassroots, archetypal feminine and small.) Recent long-term projects include a book, Bottom-up-- The Connection Revolution, debillionairizing the planet and the Psychopathy Defense and Optimization (more...)

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