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The Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show Podcast

Sylvia Clute; Calling for a Revolution in Justice and Prison Policy

Podcast submitted by Rob Kall

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Headlined to H2 8/18/10
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Bio: Sylvia Clute holds an MA in Public Administration from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, a Juris Doctorfrom Boston University School of Law, and an MA in Public Administration from the University of California at Berkeley. After several years as a trial attorney, she became disillusioned with the legal system and began her search for a better way. She founded, led and served as an advisor to numerous community and statewide initiatives. A pioneer in legal reform, she spearheaded changes in Virginia's laws relating to women and children. She has presented to many legal, civic and church organizations. Beyond Vengeance, Beyond Duality is her first work of nonfiction. She lives with her family in Richmond, Virginia.

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law made relationships worse

collaborative law- Stu Webb attorneys give advice in presence of other side.

Restorative justice-- model for dealing with breakdowns or crime that seeks healing restoration and reconciliatioin instead of vengeance, punishment and retribution.

There's this entirely new way of dealing with breaches in our culture-- an time we feel we are wrong.

Pew report-- we incarcerate 1 out of 100 adults, 1 out of every 15 african american males, 1 out of 9 young black males.

2.3 million incarcerated every given day.
being in jail without bond is like debtors prison for the poor.

25% of blacks in some states have lost the right to vote.

80% of prisoners in prison are Aftrican American, though 80% of crimes are not committed by African Americans.

in 20 years prison-industrial complex went from $10 billion to $60 billion a year. Politicians used getting tough on crime to get elected.

taking punitive model of justice to greater and greater extremes.
Wasn't done because it was good policy

cost of incarcerating a prisoner for a year is on average about a teacher's salary for a year.

now use prisons to warehouse mentally ill.

Can't abolish all imprisonment, but growth in prison population is about non-violent crime, drug use, dealing in and selling drugs.

crack cocaine to powder cocaine-- racist difference in punishments. Whites use powder

"We have become a nation of jailers, not only of petty offenders and serious criminals, but lso of ourselves."

What is justice-- vengenance, retribution, death penalty... or forgiveness, reconciliation, restoration,

Compare punitive justice with unitive justice.
Calling for justice on courthouse steps is usually punitive--

"the win-lose approach in the courtroom causes everyone to lose in one way or another."

Even after a prisoner is incarcerated, there can be victim prisoner conferences, for healing purposes.

Unitive model of justice is grounded in the golden rule.

Punitive model of justice is grounded in proportional revenge-- eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. That's what our scales of justice represent.

Top Down Justice
in 11th, 12th century, in ENgland, as country was being centralized, king was issuing writs-- took control over maintaining law and order--
crime became breaking the king's law, not harming the individual-- not murder or robbery-- was breaking of kings law that was the crime.

Now, it's the commonwealth of virginia vs. John Doe-- the state pitted against the individual-- state took authority away form local jurisdiction.

Might of state is pitted against the individual-- due process rules created to balance it out-- became necessary because the state could basically determine was guilty and we needed some restraints. Almost like a system built  upon

As we build the new unitive model, people will gravitate to the model.

Collaborative can charge the same fee as if they were doing court hearing work.

If we're not spending all the money on prisons and guards there's more money to pay for restorative justice work.

Oneness-- god is love
oneness is the container for duality. Duality is not recognizing oneness is there. When you are living in duality all you have to do to achieve oneness is to recognize it-- to open your eyes. Duality is the insanity, the unreality

quantum mind and material mind
material mind is dualistic mind that deals with physical world-- night and day,
beyond that we have a quantum mind that connects us beyond time and space-- where we feel our oneness with god, with all that is-- connect through meditation.

the next stage in evolution may be consciousness-- connecting to oneness.

after WW1 punitive approach to Germany set up WW2
Happening in Afghanistan now.
War and punitive justice is built on dual morality-- our killing is moral and our enemy's killing is not moral. We project and blame our killing on the fault of those we're killing.

Distinction Between Power and COntrol
Punitive justice and revenge can get you control.
Long term modification is done through power-- through integrity and honesty.

control sets up hierarchy. Hierarchy isn't even real It's something we set up in our mind and pretend it is real.

Power is set up by people-- is very dependent on what's at the bottom WHat's at the bottom becmes what's at the top and becomes the whole

Dual morality vs. Monomorality
Monomorality is where we have one moral standard for everyone. Killing is not acceptable by anyone. WHen there's one moral standard, people rise up to that.

Forgiveness and dispensation
Forgiveness is giving up on punishment
Dispensation is saying, "well as long as you do what I want, meet certain conditions-- I will not harm you. Forgiveness is complete.

Practicing oneness is walking the walk-- not even when you understand these principles.

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Rob Kall is executive editor, publisher and website architect of, Host of the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show (WNJC 1360 AM), and publisher of, President of Futurehealth, Inc, and an inventor . He is also published regularly on the

Listen to over 200 of Rob's Podcast interviews here.

Rob is, with the first media winner of the Pillar Award for supporting Whistleblowers and the first amendment.

With his experience as architect and founder of a technorati top 100 blog, he is also a new media / social media consultant and trainer for corporations, non-profits, entrepreneurs and authors.

Rob is a frequent Speaker on the bottom-up revolution, politics, The art, science and power of story, heroes and the hero's journey and Positive Psychology. He is a campaign consultant specializing in tapping the power of stories for issue positioning, stump speeches and debates, and optimizing tapping the power of new media. Watch me speaking on Bottom up economics at the Occupy G8 Economic Summit, here.

See more Rob Kall articles here and, older ones, here.

To learn more about Rob and, check out A Voice For Truth - ROB KALL | OM Times Magazine and this article. For Rob's work in non-political realms mostly before 2000, see his C.V..

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I have donated this site for over a decade. Great ... by Paul Kruger on Thursday, Aug 19, 2010 at 12:54:44 PM