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December 11, 2007 at 11:32:31

Headlined on 12/11/07:
CLERGY JOINS "TAPEGATE" BATTLE

by William Fisher     Page 1 of 2 page(s)

http://www.opednews.com

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A coalition of more than 130 religious organizations has joined the growing chorus of individuals and groups calling for appointment of a Special Counsel to investigate allegations regarding the CIA's destruction of videotapes and its use of "harsh" interrogation techniques.

In a letter to Attorney General Michael Mukasey, the National Religious Campaign Against Torture (NRCAT) reminded the nation’s top law enforcement officer of his testimony during confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee last month.

A key point of controversy during your confirmation process involved your statement that one particular ‘harsh’ interrogation technique (namely, waterboarding) was not necessarily torture,” the group wrote, adding: “It is possible that top Justice Department officials may have been involved in counseling the CIA about both the techniques used and the handling of the tapes.

For these reasons, the group wrote, “We believe it is necessary for you to appoint a Special Counsel, independent of the normal Justice Department chain of command, to conduct this investigation. We believe a Special Counsel is critical to achieve the confidence of the American people in the outcome of such an investigation.”

NRCAT’s letter cited a December 7 New York Times article, in which several officials said that "the tapes were destroyed in part because officers were concerned that video showing harsh interrogation methods could expose agency officials to legal risks." 

Furthermore, there appears to be credible evidence that requests for the tapes by a federal court at the time such videotapes were intact may have been ignored by the CIA. These two allegations, if true, would be evidence of the use of illegal interrogation tactics by U.S. personnel and an effort to cover-up that fact.” 

These allegations, it said, “raise serious concerns that must be fully and fairly addressed in order to retain the trust and confidence of the American people in our intelligence and justice systems.”The NRCAT letter was signed by Executive Director Rev. Richard Killmer, a Presbyterian minister, and the organization’s president, Linda Gustitus.

Gustitus is former chief of staff to Illinois Democratic Senator Carl M. Levin, chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

NRCAT’s founder, Rev. George Hunsinger of the Princeton University Theological Seminary, told us, “The destroyed videos reportedly depict waterboarding in action.  To acknowledge that waterboarding is torture is like conceding that the sun rises in the east.”

He added, “After World War II Japanese soldiers who practiced it were prosecuted as war criminals.”

In an online interview, Hunsinger asked, “Why must our public officials and would-be office-holders persist in evading the elementary truth about a technique used by monsters like Pol Pot and Pinochet, and that is being used against Buddhist monks today – to say nothing of our own secret prisons? All the dissembling in high places that makes these shocking abuses possible must be brought to an end.  But they will undoubtedly continue unless those responsible for them are held accountable.  Clearly a joint probe by the Justice Department and the CIA -- agencies that are both seriously compromised -- is not enough.  A Special Counsel is an essential first step.”

Following Judge Mukasey’s confirmation testimony, NRCAT wrote the members of the Senate Judiciary Committee expressing deep concern about the Mukasey’s responses on the subject of torture and urging the committee members to "approve a nominee as Attorney General who is unequivocal in his or her stance against the use of torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment."

Mukasey wrote the Committee saying that he found waterboarding “personally abhorrent” but declined to say whether the practice constituted torture.Gustitus and Killmer told the committee that Judge Mukasey's answers "leave open the door to the use of techniques by the U.S. government that would be cruel, inhuman and degrading and that could amount to torture."

Referring to the period when Alberto Gonzalez was Attorney General, Gustitus and Killmer said, "It is time to turn a new page. It would be tragic to allow an individual, despite his or her legal training and ability, who has not clearly rejected the illegal and immoral practices of torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment to become the leading law enforcement officer of our nation."

NRCAT's members include representatives from the Catholic, evangelical Christian, mainline Protestant, Orthodox Christian, Unitarian Universalist, Jewish, Quaker, Muslim, and Sikh communities. More than 18,000 individuals have signed NRCAT's "Statement of Conscience" against torture.

NRCAT is generally categorized as a “progressive” organization. More conservative religious organizations have largely remained silent on the “TapeGate” controversy.

The issue exploded into the headlines on December 7, after Central Intelligence Director (CIA) Michael V. Hayden announced that the CIA made videotapes in 2002 of its officers administering harsh interrogation techniques to two al-Qaeda suspects but destroyed the tapes three years later. Hayden said the action was taken to protect CIA employees from possible criminal prosecution.

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http://billfisher.blogspot.com

William Fisher has managed economic development programs in the Middle East and elsewhere for the US State Department and the US Agency for International Development. He served in the international affairs area in the Kennedy Administration and now writes on subjects ranging from human rights to foreign affairs for a number of newspapers ond online journals.

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Undergraduate degree in political science and philosophy: summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa; with postgraduate work in political economics. Postgraduate degree is a juris doctorate. I am a voracious reader and, although I make no claim to expertise, have self studied in logic, linguistics, theology, theoretical physics, macroeconomics, technical and fundamental market analysis, world history, and many other subjects, which I believed at the time helped explain the world around me.

...

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W.M.L.Undergraduate degree in political science and philosophy: summa cum laude, Phi Beta Kappa; with postgraduate work in political economics. Postgraduate degree is a juris doctorate. I am a voracious reader and, although I make no claim to expertise, have self studied in logic, linguistics, theology, theoretical physics, macroeconomics, technical and fundamental market analysis, world history, and many other subjects, which I believed at the time helped explain the world around me.

...

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THE LIBERAL CHURCH

It is attitudes like this that keep the progressive movement from coalescing into a dynamic force in these urgent times.  Let us snipe at anyone with whom we might disagree on anything, even if they agree with us on the basics.  And, of course, never acknowledge the true role that the real church has played in the American drama; such as providing the foundational principles upon which the Constitution is based, founding the underground railroad, spearheading the abolitionist movement, and being the first major American institution to integrate.  Even the historical roots of the Church's anti-abortion stand against the then popular eugenics program to eliminate the black population have been hidden from the population by John Dewey's hatred of religion and the MSM's attempt to make all Christians out to be like Jerry Falwell. 

I don't know about you, Gatto, but I have put my life on the line for the righteous cause many a time.  And as far back as Vietnam, when I was an atheist, and long before I studied the history of the Church, there was a member of the clergy at every meeting I attended.  And at every action where arrest or violence upon us was a possibility, the clergy always led the way. As my heart raced in fear, I wondered at the peace they seemed to enjoy in those moments, and how their touch or voice could calm the rest of us.    

All over OpED News I read the question, "What are we going to do?"  I think I know part of that answer, but that is a subject for an article.  However, I know what we must not do.  We must not alienate other people on our side.  We must not presuppose that we know everything.  We must attack the argument and not its proponent.  Anyone that does otherwise is merely being divisive, delaying our great hope.   

by W.M.L. (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 257 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 2:45:09 PM
 


Hi,
I'm a 66 year old woman, married with 3 children, 4 grandchildren, and 2 great grandchildren. I grew up in a family of 8 children. I work in Child Protective Services, with parents who either have abused or neglected their children or who are at risk of child abuse and neglect (generally due to such things as mental health issues, or abuse/neglect because of alcohol/drug use and/or abuse). I have worked in this field for the past 23 years. Poverty is a huge issue for families with wh...

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Crystal PurcellHi,
I'm a 66 year old woman, married with 3 children, 4 grandchildren, and 2 great grandchildren. I grew up in a family of 8 children. I work in Child Protective Services, with parents who either have abused or neglected their children or who are at risk of child abuse and neglect (generally due to such things as mental health issues, or abuse/neglect because of alcohol/drug use and/or abuse). I have worked in this field for the past 23 years. Poverty is a huge issue for families with wh...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Clergy should stay out of politics?

I don't think that the clergy have ever stayed out of politics, nor should they. I think it is important for everyone to speak their mind and stand up for what they believe.  What clergy should not do is preach from the pulpit about who do vote for or what position should be taken on political issues.  Or, I guess if they want to do that, then they can pay taxes.  I think it's unreasonable to believe that clergy should not have political views.  It also makes total sense to me that clergy should see the need for separation of church and state and that failure to do so could mean that we would at some point run the risk of having a completely Baptist, Catholic, Mormon, Methodist, Lutheran, Hindu, Islamic, or whatever Nation.  Regardless of which of those you might prefer, we really don't want that.  We want Americans to be free to practice whichever faith (or not) in which they believe.

by Crystal Purcell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 44 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 10:14:18 PM
 


I feel there is only one thing left to do - fight forces of ignorance and hate in any manner I am capable. If indeed this life prepares you for next, I want to go out shinning a light of love and to never harm another living thing in any way, outside of protecting innocents and myself from direct harm, I will not use violence, nor because of my life-style have violence perpetrated on others. Currently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee. www.nolevee.com
Mr MI feel there is only one thing left to do - fight forces of ignorance and hate in any manner I am capable. If indeed this life prepares you for next, I want to go out shinning a light of love and to never harm another living thing in any way, outside of protecting innocents and myself from direct harm, I will not use violence, nor because of my life-style have violence perpetrated on others. Currently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee. www.nolevee.com

You win! Tom

You are with-out a doubt the ultimate shit-stirrer ... my hat's off to your sir. I've seen few even in your league.

You are both absolutely right and wrong at the same time on nearly every issue - you sir are the definition of Orwell's "Double-speak"! A master at holding two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time - but you take it one step further - you can bring forth whatever view that best stirs the pot - that takes talent not everyone can have or others might never recognize - I stand in awe.

And here's the kicker - I absolutely agree with you that clergy and religion in general have most likely done more harm than good, not only to this country but the world and they should have very limited involvement with the government. But - you knew there was going to be a "but" and here's where you leave off the other half - two things, when we have so-called front-runners playing dueling "I'm-holier-than-you" banjos, who can quote scripture, but not NIE report, that pure constitutional libertarian thinking of religion being given the boot is appealing, and I'm all for it, but it's not reality based in today's environment now is it?

And then there's this - the part you left off entirely and in this instance I'm in favor - there are rare times when instances that so shock the conscience that no man, or group of men, can, nor need, nor should hold back their voice regardless of their affiliation to any religion, sect, or group, when it is found that the very foundations of humane decency and respect have been violated with impunity by men in high places.

And this is one of those times ... now stir that.  

by Mr M (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 1018 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 12:51:54 AM
 


A writer is a rogue goose. All other gees fly in a flock formation; every goose knows his place and time for honking. The rogue goose is undisciplined. He leaves the formation indiscriminately to have a look at it from aside. He roams back and forth, takes a peep at the leader, honks a little bit from behind, distracts everyone and writes on what he sees. Time passes and as he wants to return back to his place he discovers someone else there. Thus he either has to wait until they land for rest...

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Mark SashineA writer is a rogue goose. All other gees fly in a flock formation; every goose knows his place and time for honking. The rogue goose is undisciplined. He leaves the formation indiscriminately to have a look at it from aside. He roams back and forth, takes a peep at the leader, honks a little bit from behind, distracts everyone and writes on what he sees. Time passes and as he wants to return back to his place he discovers someone else there. Thus he either has to wait until they land for rest...

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Don't you understand?

Those tapes were destroyed  as a cover-up because most likely someone on those tapes  said something like ' The Prez himself authorises this' or close. Oh, for goodness sake, people, let all  shout, all makes noises because we have a criminal in power and he eats us alive.

by Mark Sashine (42 articles, 19 quicklinks, 227 diaries, 3219 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 1:04:28 PM
 


electronic technician, truth seeker
Bob Gormleyelectronic technician, truth seeker

Mark is Right

We have to stand united not divided.

by Bob Gormley (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 835 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 2:11:45 PM
 


Rob Kall is executive editor and publisher of OpEdNews.com, President of Futurehealth, Inc, inventor . He is a frequent Speaker on Politics, Impeachment, The art, science and power of story, heroes and the hero's journey, Positive Psychology, Stress, Biofeedback and a wide range of subjects. He is a campaign consultant specializing in tapping the power of stories for issue positioning, stump speeches and debates. He recently retired as organizer of several conferences, including StoryCon, the Su...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Rob KallRob Kall is executive editor and publisher of OpEdNews.com, President of Futurehealth, Inc, inventor . He is a frequent Speaker on Politics, Impeachment, The art, science and power of story, heroes and the hero's journey, Positive Psychology, Stress, Biofeedback and a wide range of subjects. He is a campaign consultant specializing in tapping the power of stories for issue positioning, stump speeches and debates. He recently retired as organizer of several conferences, including StoryCon, the Su...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Non-toxic religion

You can use your keyboard to personally attack people and call names, or you can write poetry and passionate op-eds..

You can smash  someone's head in or build a home for a homeless New orleanian.

And religion and religious beliefs can be abused or do good. And just about always, both will happen, in all of the above cases. 

You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. But you throw out the people who piss in the pool. 

by Rob Kall (722 articles, 3752 quicklinks, 305 diaries, 1492 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 2:55:34 PM
 


Tim was banned from the site for posting private email from the publisher to him on his blog, and then attacking the publisher and the site in emails and articles. OEN has no responsibility to publish articles from people who attack the site.

Tim's accusations that he was banned for his political positions are untrue. Check his articles. He repetitively wrote about and had published exactly the things he claimed he was banned for doing.

Former Chairman of the Liberal ...

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Timothy V. GattoTim was banned from the site for posting private email from the publisher to him on his blog, and then attacking the publisher and the site in emails and articles. OEN has no responsibility to publish articles from people who attack the site.

Tim's accusations that he was banned for his political positions are untrue. Check his articles. He repetitively wrote about and had published exactly the things he claimed he was banned for doing.

Former Chairman of the Liberal ...

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Seperation of Church and State

When the "clergy" joins the movement as individuals and not as a part of a group I don't mind, I welcome them. When organized religion gets involved with political causes, even when they ally themselves with the progressive movement (Which they almost never do) I become suspect. I'm only one person. I don't represent anyone but myself. Frankly, I feel that religious groups have done alot of damage to this country in the last decade. Excuse me for being suspect, but this is my own opinion and anyone is welcome to differ with me. I'm not spewing hate and venom here, I'm just expressing an opinion. What I wrote in my comment wasn't an attept to "divide" anyone. Seems like expressing an opinion on these "sanctified" people is just as dangerous to do on a progressive venue as it is on a far-right one. OK, I'll remember not to speak ill of the church.

by Timothy V. Gatto (348 articles, 177 quicklinks, 38 diaries, 575 comments) on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 at 8:03:07 PM
 


I feel there is only one thing left to do - fight forces of ignorance and hate in any manner I am capable. If indeed this life prepares you for next, I want to go out shinning a light of love and to never harm another living thing in any way, outside of protecting innocents and myself from direct harm, I will not use violence, nor because of my life-style have violence perpetrated on others. Currently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee. www.nolevee.com
Mr MI feel there is only one thing left to do - fight forces of ignorance and hate in any manner I am capable. If indeed this life prepares you for next, I want to go out shinning a light of love and to never harm another living thing in any way, outside of protecting innocents and myself from direct harm, I will not use violence, nor because of my life-style have violence perpetrated on others. Currently I'm a cartoonist and contributing writer for The New Orleans Levee. www.nolevee.com

I just can't help myself - you bring out the best in me ...

Just so you know, I actually agree with your independent near anarchy way. And I find it hard living in a world that isn't more, well, like me. But I'm crazy.

Anyway, again I just had to reiterate a point. In this instance I don't care who stops these madmen from torturing, murdering and raping people, and just doing their best to turn this planet into some kind of post Armageddon Hell of a burnt cinder. I really don't care at this point. Space Aliens could land and I'd applaud them if they could stop this carnage. Damn sure Congress isn't doing anything to stop it! So if the Pope, a few religious groups or Jesus himself wants to stick his nose in at this point, I say COME ON!

Just remember to climb back in your space ship when the job is done. And maybe take me with ya.

by Mr M (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 4 diaries, 1018 comments) on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 1:13:47 AM
 

 

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