May we drop the appellations like Catholic, Protestant, Fundamentalist, Evangelical, Christian Right, etc., and simply talk to and about Christians and Christianity.
True or False? George Bush speaks for America.
Demonstrably false! Check all the polls. God knows who or what he "thinks" he is speaking for, but it's certainly not us.
True of False? Millionaire television Evangelists are speaking for the whole of Christianity.
Also totally false! Outside their twitching television audiences, their impact and influence on the Christian religion is profoundly limited. The 2,000 year old "super taker" of Christianity has never been turned by fanatical cults.
Which brings to why this is an SOS to Christianity.
The carefully orchestrated illusion of the last six year (a la Karl Rove) is that Bush/Republicans are all of a piece with Christianity. Hence, many good hearted Christians voted for Bush, assuming they were voting for Christian values.
This was a triumph of Judas/Nazi propaganda, because EVERYTHING the Bush/Republican administration is doing and has done would be anathema to the loving founder of Christianity.
REPUBLICAN FACT: The United States of America is now a Dictatorship of the Rich. Don't look to South America to find oligarchies; just look at the White House.
CHRISTIAN FACT: The main thing Jesus Christ preached was compassion for the poor in spirit (and pocket). We must never forget that the ONLY time in the gospels when Jesus "lost his cool" was when he whipped the money changers out of the temple. Alas, he didn't finish the job (our responsibility?) since the Earth is still crawling with money changing "temples", such as the Bush/Saudi Royal Family, Texas energy corporations whose profits increased SEVERAL HUNDRED PERCENT during these last six Bush/Saudi years, and Cheney/Halliburton's monstrous gouging in Iraq, and on and on and on. Bottom line, the vampire rich have changed from millionaires to multimillionaires and multimillionaires to billionaires, all thanks to this puppet president of America's Greek God like elites.
Granted, it's taken awhile, but we finally see things like they are (in spite of the Judas press), and what we see is profoundly different from the Republican propaganda picture continuously painted since the year 2000.
Naturally, on one side we have Bush/Republicans and on the other side we have Democratic progressives.
So on WHICH SIDE do the values and vision of Christianity and Jesus Christ fall?
Nothing could be simpler. Pug spinning notwithstanding, Jesus' compassion for the middle and lower classes (to use contemporary words) harmonizes perfectly with the left of center values and policies of the Democratic Party.
And please, please ignore the hypocritical dem centrists (e.g., Hillary Clinton, Joe Liebermann, and the DLC); since they are the court jesters, merely, of the vampire rich -- the "luke warm" ones Jesus said he would spit out of his mouth. No, "liberalism" and "progressivism" are the political words which are virtual synonyms of the primary teachings of Jesus Christ, i.e., compassion for the poor and contempt for the astronomically rich.
Of course, for the Republican Party it's exactly the opposite: contempt for the poor and compassion for the astronomically rich. Hence munificent tax breaks for the 1% elites and back breaks for the 99% of the rest of us.
Do you really not understand why Christians don't vote for Progressive Liberals? I mean really??? As a Christian I will be glad to tell you, if you mean it.
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 1:22:59 PM
"Do you really not understand why Christians don't vote for Progressive Liberals? I mean really??? As a Christian I will be glad to tell you, if you mean it."
Since you espouse to have the defining word for ALL Christians, I would like to hear the "why" part and especially the " really??" part.
Better yet, also tell us why Christians voted for a pathological liar, a miserable excuse for a human being and a murderer of the innocent for money and power, a xenophobe, a heretic and a pariah. I simply must know....do tell us. Just how does the rabid, religious right think?
by
Frank J. Ranelli (66 articles, 143 quicklinks, 29 diaries, 383 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 2:36:56 PM
Yes, I would like to know since I too was raised a Christian and for me these last 6 Bush/Republican years are on the other side of the universe from the compassionate and loving teachings of Jesus Christ. Indeed, if I ever believed in an anti Christ, it's George W. Bush.
The number of ways Bush has desecrated Christianity are too numerous to list here, but the interface for me (and millions of liberal Americans) and the legacy of Jesus Christ is most clearly seen in Jesus' love for the poor in spirit and pocket, e.g., those wretched Americans who the House of Bush is stomping almost into oblivion (e.g., New Orleans).
This obscene transfer of wealth into the hands of the astronomically rich FROM the lower and middles classses has never even been approached in the history of our nation.
The God of Christianity is not a greed vampire.
The God of George W. Bush IS a greed vampire.
And progresssives have ALWAYS been committed to helping the middle and lower classes. For all their ups and downs and moments of confusion, liberals have historically walked the Christian walk.
It's not just a joke to say GOP stands for GREED ON PARADE, and all the polls now indicate that the great majority of Americans (Christians, conservatives, & independents included) find this very ANTI Christian money worship to be contemptible.
If we ever needed the compassionate realism of Jesus Christ to see this fascist, greed obsessed administration for exactly what it is, it's now.
by
W. Christopher Epler (Bill) (251 articles, 53 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 599 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 5:58:21 PM
I'm glad to hear you were raised a Christian. My main point of contention is that Jesus would vote for a Progressive Liberal. You take one of area of Jesus' vast teachings and extrapolate that out to include the whole liberal agenda.I disagree. Of course Jesus had compassion on the poor. He commanded that we love one another and take care of one another. "as ye have done for these, ye have done for me." I don't know any true Christian who would argue with you. But, is that the only agenda of the Progressive Liberal? Just to love and take care of the poor? If it is, then sign me up! But what about abortion? Do you think Jesus would be all for that? He also said,"suffer the little ones to come unto me. It would be better to put a millstone around your neck and jump in the lake than to harm one of these." What about homosexual marriage? Do you think Jesus would think that is the way it should be? His father said it was an abomination. Contrary to all you read on this site, Christians don't hate gays. We don't think their lifestyle is right but no one hates them except your occasional nutcase. What about the Ten commandments being forbidden in the school? Do you think he would be pleased that His father's words and laws could not be displayed for all to see? Especially for the children to see? I could go on but I think you get my drift. I just get so tired of hearing Christians referred to as "rabid ,foaming at the mouth idiots who do nothing but condemn people to hell." A true Christian was given what is called the great commission from Jesus himself. That is to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all the world. It isn't done out of hatred folks, it's done out of love. We believe that Jesus is the way to heaven, so if a Christian tells you what he or she believes it is out of a desire to see you go to heaven as well. There's nothing mean spirited about it, and if you run into that then you're not dealing with the type of Christian that I'm talking about. I appreciate the time you've given me ,Mr. Epler, to say my piece and I wish you well in the future.
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 8:14:05 PM
You're most welcome and I appreciate your courtesy in turn. And yes, Jesus spoke to many things in addition to his compassion for the poor, but that's the issure I was emphasizing because it passionately resonates with the historical policies and actions of America's liberal citizens.
I also realized in retrospect that I was too fuzzy about the liberal, Christian relationship. I think I left the impression (hurried writing!) that this is a kind of either/or, but I suspect the exact opposite is the case. That is to say, I would be astonished if most liberals weren't also Christians. Truthfully, I have no statistics to support this, but if that is the case then another way of saying what I was struggling to say is that we (i.e., liberal Christians) want the Bush-mislead Christains to come back to the fold.
peace, Bill
by
W. Christopher Epler (Bill) (251 articles, 53 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 599 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 9:11:27 PM
It's punks like you that make no one from my side even want to bother trying to have a dialogue. I'm a "rabid" person because I don't believe exactly like you? And I said as a Christian I would tell him what I think.I didn't say I could tell him what everyone else thinks. Those were your words.
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 4:17:48 PM
Let's see...two people have asked you for an explanation that you offered unsolicited and now you refuse to answer on the grounds of a low-brow, pejorative assumption that I am a "punk." You clearly do not know anything about me and have not read a single article of mine. A 'punk' is defined as "an aggressive and violent young criminal." I am neither violent, young nor a criminal." Strike three, you're out!
The fundamental problem here is like all religious screeds, you offer no proof, only anger because you feel the need to chose "sides." Your egregious misunderstanding about the most elemental part of our government is that it is a secular government and religion should never be discussed in the context of politics. The successful governing of a nation has little to do with faith or beliefs and everything to do with successful actions, aptitude, and proper management of the national affairs at hand.
Choosing a president must be done based on merit and ability, not the candidate's personal views on faith and religion. In case you missed it, the founding fathers of this nation broke free from England so as to avoid religious persecution and started a secular government. The chief architect of the Constitution, James Madison, was so apprehensive of a state-based religion that the word 'god" is never even mentioned, not even once. The only mention of the word "religion" is in the First Amendment that provides for "freedom of and from religion."
Your original statement, "Do you really not understand why Christians don't vote for Progressive Liberals" rigorously implies and infers a plurality, not a singular mindset or individual opinion. You present yourself as the ambassador for all Christians when you invoke an assumptive statement that claims the knowledge of more than you possess.
Therefore, if you would like to discuss your religious views or your political views, fine, I am all eyes and ears. However, its high-time we stop trying to infuse religion of any denomination or divinity into our worldly government. If you want to discuss politics liberal v. conservative principles or the pros and cons of religion, then they must be separated into exclusive conversations, not inclusive ones.
Finally, based on the Webster's dictionary of the word "punk", I believe that two of the three adjectives violent and criminal more pertinently match and fittingly describe the current occupant of the White House.
That said, the rest of us are awaiting your answer that was offered up with glee as to why "Christians do not vote for liberals or progressives." Tick, tock...
by
Frank J. Ranelli (66 articles, 143 quicklinks, 29 diaries, 383 comments)
on Tuesday, January 2, 2007 at 10:12:05 PM
I listed 3 reasons in my answer to Mr. Epler. There are more, but those will do. What are you missing here? You may want to separate politics from religion, but this Christian doesn't. My choice, right?
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 4:05:51 PM
I am not so much a christian than I am just a good and decent human being. For one Jesus did not mention anything in the bible about abortion being wrong. What do you think woman did during bibical times they too had abortions it is after all old as ancient times> And as far as gay marriage some of the scriptures that are used can be misinterpeted. Like most people who read the bible they either get it wrong or turn it into something that is is not. thats whats really wrong in this country. Our founding fathes kept church and state separate due to the fact that they came from a country(England) where there was no separation and do you see what it did to Europe alot of these churches today are empty. It could happen here as well,. You cant post the ten commandments in school this is regarding the state and ten commandments is regarding religion. Now you can say a silent prayer in school but you cant force children who come from all kinds of home to say this. Religion is not met to be force down peoples throat. When you take religion and misuse it like so many people have then what you get is a slow distruction of a religion that is slowly being destroyed. So many people have stop going to church because of this very reason. What ever happen to using it in its place. let the church be the church let the politicians whose main job is to uphold the constitution and represent the people. Do you feel that only representing chrisitan values is not what I call representing the people what it means is the arrogance of some christians to want things their way and the religious power that comes with it to tell people my way or the highway. This is no way to run a country. I myself do not like seeing religion being out of place to much corruptness comes from it. Now we have politicians that is using it to get into office. Like GWB he is no christian but he needed these evangicals to get in. See what happens when it is use the wrong way it becomes corrupt. I hope in the future we can get back to worrying about how to make this country great for everyone regardless of what you believe in.
by
chip90043 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 60 comments)
on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 4:29:17 PM
I didn't realize that people reading the Bible incorrectly was the main source of trouble in our country. I understand completely now. And on that note I will quitely fold my tent and be on my way. Goodnight now.
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Wednesday, January 3, 2007 at 5:17:31 PM
If you know your history man has always in most part have used christianity the wrong way. There was a time when the bishops and cardinals would not allow lay people to even read it because they wanted to use it their way. not necessarily the ways of God. People like you dont see things for what they really are. man has always used religion according to their own purpose. If you havent notice how man has destroy the teachings of Jesus, Look towards what this President has done he used god for his ungodly injust war. I was always told not to drag God into your mess a man of peace would never agree to killing innocent people. You said you read the bible but didnt notice that this is wrong. Why is it that people who call themselves christian refuse to see what the dangerous part of what man can do to it. This president and these fundamentalist have destroy everything good about it and if you didnt notice that then what exactly do you read when it comes to his teachings.
by
chip90043 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 60 comments)
on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 1:37:28 PM
I have missed nothing, you have obviously missed your civics 101 class and how the Constitution works. Did you even read what I wrote?
You have the right to practice your religion, just not in our government. Its really that simple. This is a secular government, not a sectarian one. Introducing the Ten Commandments into our schools....the absurdity and danger of that is unfathomable. How offensive that would be to the millions of non-Christian students we have in the U.S.
What "this Christian" missed is you are entitled to your own faith, but not your own facts or realities.
FACT: This is a secular government. It is not a "Christian nation." Period.
Read my articles about religion, faith and the tennants of Christianity and then get back to me with a dose or reality and not superstition.
by
Frank J. Ranelli (66 articles, 143 quicklinks, 29 diaries, 383 comments)
on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 1:45:21 AM
Ok. I'll try this one more time. The subject was why I don't vote for Progressive Liberals, not what form of Govt we have. My only point is that when I decide whom I'm going to vote for, I take into account everything I know about their stands on different issues.My religious views on different matters affect how I view a candidate. They are not the only consideration, but they are important to me. I'm going to vote for the person who espouses views closest to mine. What on earth is wrong with that? Can you tell me that you don't use the same criteria? You are not going to vote for a tax cutting, anti- abortion Christian (I don't think) and that's your right! Viva la difference!
And Chip, please stop lecturing on the bible, I'm not sure you are qualified. Your ignorance on parts of it are alarming.
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 2:22:26 PM
I just know what i know and see. It seems to me that you are the one who do not know the bible. I am realistic I notice you didnt have anything to rebute what I mentioned in the last post usually when people attack you that lets me know that they did not have a comment on what I said instead avoid it by attacking me. YOu might have been raised to believe that this is how you should be but didnt you know that organized religion was set up to control your thoughts that is why you put me down you dont know yourself . How is it that you are qualify to judge others didnt the bible says not to pass judgement? You dont even know me. Voting for someone who will do something that will benefit all of us not just christians,and since you are more concern about tax cut when Jesus says pay your fair share of taxes. Give unto ceaser things that are ceasers give unto god things that are god. In other words pay your fair share the fact that not voting for someone who is going to make you pay your fair share lets me know that you are not qualified either. And I know that you must be a right winger because most of you are only concern about abortion and tax cuts. By the way if you are so intuned to life make abortion illegal and when these woman drop dead you can take pride into knowing that your vote cause the lifes of woman over something that the bible didnt even speak about let alone what relgion if any these woman practice. It is a personal decisions that should not be part of the body politics. After all since you seem to know what Jesus stands for you should also know that he gave man free will to choose or not to choose their own personal decisions. Now how is it that I am not qualify but knew that and you didnt. Unless you are sexually repressive like most of these Repubican men who have contempt for woman. Are You????
by
chip90043 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 60 comments)
on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 10:58:03 PM
I just know what i know and see. It seems to me that you are the one who do not know the bible. I am realistic I notice you didnt have anything to rebute what I mentioned in the last post usually when people attack you that lets me know that they did not have a comment on what I said instead avoid it by attacking me. YOu might have been raised to believe that this is how you should be but didnt you know that organized religion was set up to control your thoughts that is why you put me down you dont know yourself . How is it that you are qualify to judge others didnt the bible says not to pass judgement? You dont even know me. Voting for someone who will do something that will benefit all of us not just christians,and since you are more concern about tax cut when Jesus says pay your fair share of taxes. Give unto ceaser things that are ceasers give unto god things that are god. In other words pay your fair share the fact that not voting for someone who is going to make you pay your fair share lets me know that you are not qualified either. And I know that you must be a right winger because most of you are only concern about abortion and tax cuts. By the way if you are so intuned to life make abortion illegal and when these woman drop dead you can take pride into knowing that your vote cause the lifes of woman over something that the bible didnt even speak about let alone what relgion if any these woman practice. It is a personal decisions that should not be part of the body politics. After all since you seem to know what Jesus stands for you should also know that he gave man free will to choose or not to choose their own personal decisions. Now how is it that I am not qualify but knew that and you didnt. Unless you are sexually repressive like most of these Repubican men who have contempt for woman. Are You????
by
chip90043 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 60 comments)
on Thursday, January 4, 2007 at 11:16:35 PM
No, thankfully, none of that going on here. Thanks for asking though! I've enjoyed the back and forth with you and Frankie a lot. We are not going to change any minds here though,so I'll see you on another post I'm sure.
by
larry booth (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 301 comments)
on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 12:09:34 PM
You have retreated from your original assertions and now chose to obfuscate your real intentions injection of Christian canon into our government. You have no idea how I vote, but to help you along, I may, may not vote for tax cuts, I may, or may not vote for anti-abortion, but I would never weigh an issue or a candidate's laudability based on whether or not they were Christian. I don't care about their system of beliefs. Again, abortion and tax cuts are reality-based topics that can be discussed in the context of realism and how as a society we may address them. In other words, they are legitimate, worldly subject matter than can be discussed in a tenable, rational fashion to arrive at a factual conclusion. Christianity, by its very nature, since it is a conviction based on celestial creed, is unsustainable in a lay government.
The sooner we leave the Bible (or any other pious policy) in church and not bring it to the voting booth the better off this nation will be.
Otherwise, we have quacks like Pat Robertson proclaiming he 'speaks to God' and he has prophesized that "God told him the U.S. will suffer a large-scale terrorist attack in 2007," and the mindless sheeple of his flock go running for cover demanding government involvement and backing!
Ps. I think Chip is doing a fine job in pointing out the many hypocrisies and double-standards that are applied by many Christians today.
by
Frank J. Ranelli (66 articles, 143 quicklinks, 29 diaries, 383 comments)
on Friday, January 5, 2007 at 7:06:44 AM
18 comments
How would you rate this?
You must be logged in (if signed up) to do ratings.
It's free to signup! And easy. And takes just a minute or two....
Must Read (
Well Said (
News (
Touching (
Funny (
Supported (
Interesting (
Inspiring (
Valuable (
