Using this logic, Assemblyman Carroll should invite Jews to thank Hitler for instigating the Holocaust, thus inspirng the final creation of the state of Israel, and he should ask Indians to thank the Great White Father for stealing their lands and decimating their ranks so that they too could become Americans.

Of course some Republicans would probably like to bring back slavery to allow new generations of Africans this golden opportunity.

by Mac McKinney (53 articles, 113 quicklinks, 240 diaries, 1413 comments [31 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 7:28:02 AM

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when my son was studying in  a private school for some time the Holocaust there was considered to have a 'positive part' in the formation of Israel.   When I found out about it and told my son to call it a malicious nonsense as he did, we  nearly got into trouble. So....  it is all here.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 9:55:47 AM

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I'm surprised! I believe in multiple pantheon of gods they include the ultimate 'Truth' and the secondary deity 'Context. I this vien I wonder at the context of what you say.

eg Australia was founded (not built) on convicts and their horrendous treatment akin to slavery. It could be argued that it was this act was good for establishment of Aus.

Like wise I wonder if without the "Holocaust" if Israel would have ever been created? That doesn't mean the actual killing is/was acceptable but it was a major catalyst (allied [American] guilt, internal pressure aznd a great PR campaign.

Keep in mind I have a  34 yo daughter who is a practising Jew. To be fair to her she has severe doubts as to the direction of Israel's policies wit regard to the Palestinians.

Also rember the oft forgotten other victims of the Holocaust ie the Gypsies.  They came from a smaller base their mass exterminations were even more catastrophic and tragic.

Using the Jewish arguments for why they deserve Palistine more than the Palestinians. The Gypsies have their own language and culture unique to them.They didn't get a country taken from other people and supported by the US.

I don't argue against Israel but rather for a wider less hyersensitive perspective.

I would like to see the context of your comments.

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 531 comments) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 6:14:42 PM

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The context of my comment here is that there are other cases when people get nuts. Then they use arguments that  the horrible tragedy   of killing 6 million people has its 'good  sign'. That's  stupid malice.  In fact, no  one ever gave Israel a label of ' goodness',  either, so  all of that is a  malicious nonsense.  I am not sure why you  suddenly attacked me on forgetting the Gypsies; I not only did not forget them but in several of my publications here ( please, read those, especially  my Slimy Love series in diaries and articles) I specifically mentioned them  as been deliberately forgotten as victims.   They surely did not get any compensation either.

I just commented on  the comment before me that according to the Idiotic logic of new Jersey Assemblyman Jews should be grateful for Holocaust because it led to  the creation of Israel. I thus mentioned that it was not a joke, that some people really think that way here and they  not only are not put into asylum where they belong but teach children. That was all I had in my context in this comment. You are welcome to read my articles  and diaries as well as comments ( more then 2000) to see my position  on all the main issues.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 7:37:25 AM

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I can't find any flaw in it at all!!  :-D  good job!

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 3:59:46 PM

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The utter lack of a conscious by Assemblyman Carroll, total lack of compassion or any empathy that what happened was ultimately wrong is prevalent in today’s society.

I have been though a 15 year nightmare that I would not wish upon slaves, Hitler or anyone else.  I have had the United States of America, State of Pennsylvania, County of Montgomery attempt to murder me to the point that I have filed an Article 22 Formal Complaint alleging State sponsored torture and abuse.

America has too many “low life’s” in positions of power.  n-word, Kike, Deadbeat, are just labels place on a human being to justify what that individual or State is about to do next.  The German people could not murder 6 million human beings, but Kikes were ok.

Assemblyman Carroll should be removed from office and never allowed to hold a public office again!

by Michael Morris (20 articles, 0 quicklinks, 16 diaries, 316 comments [4 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 8:55:13 AM

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Persons of any party who share such simplistic minds shouldn't hold office when they are so busy holding on to own their private parts. Assuming the assemblyman is being sincere, and that's a big assumption, maybe he wouldn't mind being kidnapped, caged and taken to a better nation like Sweden to churn butter at gunpoint for the next 25 years, while his kids are taken and his wife is raped.

I salute his honesty. We need to know who these people are. We need to defeat them at any cost, including running third party GOPs against them in GOP primaries and final elections.  Maybe a Federal Prosecutor should take a close look at all the commentary and consider violations of hate crime laws or sedition and inciting to riot laws.

by Dusty Nathan (18 articles, 0 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 69 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 8:58:53 AM

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These are the types of people who are running our country.

by Rick Theile (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 50 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 11:05:40 AM

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I find it hard to believe that Mr. Carroll was unaware of the impact of his statement. Somehow, he figgers that riling up his base would be a feather in his duncecap. Let's hope this is brought up as much as possible until answered for.

 Read more >>   Options >>  

by t rogers (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 15 comments) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 11:36:40 AM

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The Assemblyman is mistaken. It is the Africans who were not kidnapped who thank God every day that subsequent generations  were able to continue living in their awesomely beautiful continent.

by Guajolotl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 131 comments) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 12:55:33 PM

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Regardless how they got to America it is the fact of being owned by someone else. Treated badly, lived in appalling conditions without any more rights than a dog is the shame.

 issue here. It is irrelevent who sold who black or white. Two logic problems with your response . First is the concept of ownership of another person (human rights). Just because some African Chieftian has discovered a way to make money  ie capture war prisoners then sell them to "Yankees" (original meaning) the prisoners were still removed from their land against their will ergo Kidnapped. Abducted.Semantical difference!

Under the laws of  the principal of clear title would have been(as now) relevant.  Title can't be passed to another unless the ownership is valid .

As the African Chief didn't have clear title to the people therefore clear title coundn't be passed to the slavers (a legal concept in the US then). By definition they could be charged as co-criminals. Or charged with Aiding and abetting an illegal act of kidnapping and subsequent slavery.

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 531 comments) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 4:53:23 PM

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Imagine this..  New Jersey has now apologized to the descendants of African slaves...  That is fine, that is good...  HOWEVER, nobody has complained to the African nations who SOLD their brothers and sisters to the British slave traders who sold the slaves to the colonists living in NJ....

Maybe some of the nations of Africa could follow NJ's lead and apologize for selling its own people to foreign nations.  Do you think this is a possibility given that some of those nations are still selling their own people as slaves now?

Just something to think about...  (though I will probably be bashed for this comment as some type of racist bigot of some sort)

Ciao, CZ 

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 4:05:16 PM

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You would have  to trace tribes, not nations, to put any blame on, because it was largely Europeans that drew all the present boundaries of African nations.

Yes there was plently of blame to go around in slavery, and there still is, because slavery still exits.

by Mac McKinney (53 articles, 113 quicklinks, 240 diaries, 1413 comments [31 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 4:38:27 PM

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To summarize the issue at hand i would like to say that people of all races and religions sometimes do things that could be viewed by righteous minded folks as immoral or just plain wrong. Hate and prejudice is something universal one might say. Simply put their were and still are evil people in Africa and evil people in America. Sometimes political correctness tends to paint a one sided picture, the truth is usually much more difficult to understand and sometimes can never be understood.

by Gary Denson (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 283 comments) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 4:33:18 PM

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What makes the Assemblyman's coments valid as an oppinion (allbe it insensitive and more than a mite simple mindeded ) it the myth that is propergated at every oppotunity "that the USA is the greatest Country in the world (some even claim ever)." Clearly a perceptional issue one that can't be objectively proven.

 This Thereby opening up the concept that citizenship is the greatest status other humans can achieve. No sacrifice is too much for this goal. Therefore it follows that the individual  should be prepared to sacrifice for the good of the 'country'.

This is one of the premises behind the formation of Conservatism (politics) whereaby it was assumed that by making the Crountry paramount the rulling elite could continue to ....rule.......Status Quo.

It is interesting to note that extreme at both ends of the Political spectrum tend to talk in terms of absolutes and often have symbols of the nation there as if to give extra validity to their perspective. One right wing think tanker who used to write showed him being backdropped by the flag.

Dr Samuel Johnson one said "Patriotism (Unbridled [my word]) is the last resort of a scoundrel" To me those are wise words. One could even paraphrase politically thus "beware of 'Patriots' bearing gifts".

Side issue Aussies are generally less patriotically demonstrative and more suspicious  of such displays. As a consequence politics tend to more issue based. ie a ten year PM and his government were unceremoniously dumped over industrial benefits.

A truism here is that elections aren't won by oppositions but lost by governments. Howard created the bridge too far by the above ultra right concepts of industrial 'slavery'  as percieved in the USA.

by Andris (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 531 comments) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 5:34:01 PM

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and then, after she shells the forum with these remarks, she refuses to defend her position...

 
I have noticed this on several occasions, and it is rather tiresome....  Mary, maybe if you would actually participate in a dialog, you might actually learn a perspective you have thus far refused to consider...  (an opinion other than your own...)

I don't expect this, however...  So I am probably just speaking to the still night air....

Ciao, CZ

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jan 3, 2008 at 6:54:07 PM

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Mary just had drawn to our attention  a nutty, bigoted idiot who also happened to be an elected official in New Jersey. That tells us a lot about NewJerseyans (sorry for the word).  Nothing else. All other issues like that why won't African nations apologize, etc are irrelavant here because  IT IS NOT OUR BUSINESS.  New Jersey  nut  IS OUR BUSINESS, he is here, now, making harm to US. African- Americans are not a part of Africa; they are part of  the US and any idiotic, insulting andd malicious statement about them  insults ALL OF US. If someone does not feel insulted when the ethnic group of  AMERICANS is, that someone  needs help, sorry.

Again,  we have to weed out the nutty idiots HERE. Only after we do that we will have a right to speculate about other nations.

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 7:58:10 AM

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A lot of people are quick to say that aficans sold slaves as well. This is true but what many fail to realize is that slaves in Africa were treated much different. They were treated like human beings. They were not raped. They were not whipped in public. They did not work from dawn till dusk. They were allowed to keep their names and eventually they were freed. Chiefs and "war-lords" were not aware and did not dream that the people they sold would be treated so savagely. They thought the slaves would be treated like human beings. That still does not make it right but it's a far cry from what they were ultimately subjected to.

by She She (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 12:26:51 PM

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however, you do need to understand that not all slaves were treated savagely... first of all, they were a huge investment ($25,000 by today's dollars) when purchased (as compared to the price of slaves today sold from the same region as the Brit slave traders purchased them from back then)

Currently, slaves from that region are being sold for sex as well as other uses.  that is TODAY!  not 135 years ago... 

Again, this is not a defence, slavery is bad, period..  there is no justification...  However, you really can't suggest that the warlords that sold their own countrymen and women really cared about their welfare once sold, or actually cared how they would be treated..  they were interested in one thing...  MONEY...   

Ciao, CZ 

by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 829 comments [52 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Jan 5, 2008 at 11:34:46 AM

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What I find troubling about some of the comments here is the indirect way the topic of slavery is addressed.  In many forums, the focus may be re-directed - as in speaking about the Holocaust for example (although of course the Holocaust was a horrible thing as well).  Or - re-directing blame for the slave trade to African chiefs when it is clear who the real beneficiaries were and continue to be - and it wasn't the chiefs.  We can all agree (or maybe not) that the institution of slavery is a very complex topic but what is clear, undoubtedly, is that it's affects were and continue to be far reaching in a most negative way.  Proof of this -  is the type of comments made like this politician.  This type of thinking is not as rare as we would like to believe.  More proof?  Let's simply look at the abundance of wealth this country continues to enjoy, which can basically, for the most part, be traced back to slavery and the wealth of slaveholders.  Without free labor - this nation would not be the great nation it is today.  On top of that, the legacy of slavery has given birth to a miserable history of not only the absolute disgustingly inhumane treatment of slaves and of free blacks but of the blatant racism and discrimination of blacks which have lasted for centuries.  The focus can be re-directed to make people feel better or blame-free - but Slavery is an undeniable piece of really ugly history whose affects will leave a horrible stain on this country's collective conscious.  Denial won't make it go away.

by purelogic (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 1:27:31 PM

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when we here, now apologize for slavery it is not white people apologizing to black people. It is we, Americans, apologize to the  victims of that horror  and show that we understand that it was horror, show that we  had become better and that we have open eyes and hearts.  It is not ' black people came  to America'. No, Sir. It is  a' younger brother whom they send to the kitchen' at last  sits at the same table with all of us and we apologize to him that we did what we did. It is an act of honor and  dignity  from all. A time to rejoice. If you had a family and  for a long time one of the children would bee neglected but then you bring him/her in, aologize and  you hug each other, would not that be  a reason to rejoice? So why don't we want to do that now and bicker about Africa, etc?

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 2:00:11 PM

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http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mark_sas_070107_slimy_love__racism_a.htm

The article is called ' Racism as a disease of the heart'

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 2:52:00 PM

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KG

I'm only going to comment on one part of your post because to comment on the whole thing would take days....

YES, there were many black slave holders in America BECAUSE (Which you conveniently left out) when a family member became free or would somehow buy their freedom, they would then start to buy their own family members out of SLAVERY!!!

And this is a FACT because my 2x great grandmother brought her freedom then brought her whole entire family out out Slavery. This is documented at the historic landmark register department of Virginia.

by Buck Jackson (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Friday, Jan 4, 2008 at 5:39:33 PM

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