I'd heard of these ultra-Orthodox Jews before, but I didn't realize that they had three synagogues in New York along with a presence in Israel and in other places around the world.
The first thing I saw at their website was a picture of their meeting with Ahmadinejad:
Without going much further, it seems that there really is a difference between Judaism and Zionism, and that not all who are anti-Zionist are anti-Semitic. Although I am no advocate of Orthodox Judaism, I found myself in agreement with some of their arguments.
As an American, freedom of religion is important to me, and I've never had much respect for theocracies. Since I believe that both Israel and Iran are theocracies, I can't say I'm particularly enthused about either one. But when Orthodox Jews oppose the existence of the State of Israel, and yet cannot be called anti-Semitic, it seems to me that those who merely oppose the policies of the State of Israel should not automatically be deemed anti-Semites.
Personally, I am opposed to some of the policies of the State of Israel, such as the Palestinian Occupation and the invasion of Lebanon, but I hadn't thought to oppose the existence of the State of Israel. Nor do I oppose the existence of Iran, although I wouldn't want to live in either country. Still, I found the Neturei Karta website to be extremely interesting and quite possibly useful in clarifying the difference between Judaism and Zionism.
I've also heard Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez called anti-Semitic because he has befriended Ahmadinejad. Since I have Jewish relatives living in Venezuela who don't think that Chavez is anti-Semitic, I had to question that label as well.
As an atheist and a feminist, I'm not sure either Israel or Iran are capable of bringing out positive social change, but I do think that President Hugo Chavez is doing so in Venezuela. I certainly don't want to see my country nuke or invade Iran, no matter how much I dislike theocracies, but nor would I particularly like to see Israel wiped off the map. What I'd like is for people to learn to live in peace and to treat others with the same respect that they would want. I've never been sure that this is possible in the Middle East, but I can no longer say that my own country is setting an example of religious tolerance and enlightened foreign policy.
So this is just food for thought, something that I found to be of interest and that others may too. I have a fondness for math and sometimes, just when I think I've solved a problem, it turns out that I haven't and I have to start all over again. International affairs may be similar, in that sometimes, just when I think I've understood something, it turns out that I haven't and I have to rethink the entire thing. This may be one of those times.
I STRONGLY suggest that you do a little research about Neturei Karta.
I can tell you that they represent NOONE in the Orthodox Jewish community.
FACT.
They represent themselves, and only themselves which are approximately 500 families. This is less then .1% of religious Jews.
They dress like ultra religious Jews and get all the media coverage since they are dressed like that.
They originally were part of the Satmar Hasidic sect, but have since taken a drastic turn for kissing terrorists.
They are NOT rabbis. Someone who has a long beard and wears the traditional Hasidic garb of Poland does not make them a Rabbi.
If you agree with Israel as a State or not is irrelevant - but kissing a terrorist who has denied the Holocaust and calls for the State of Israel "to be wiped off the map" is totally outrages and against the Jewish Bible - the Torah.
As a religious Jew I can tell you that they don't represent anyone else besides themselves.
Why don't you write an email to the Editor in Chief of the largest distributed Jewish Newspaper in the USA "Yated Neeman" and ask him? His name is Rabbi Pinny Lipschitz. Or how about contacting one of the largest most powerful Jewish Organizations in the world called Agudas Israel of America. How about contacting Mr. Malcolm Honelein of the Conference of Presidents? Or visit my website and search for Neture Karta.
Again....PLEASE do some research.
YW Editor.
by
YW Editor (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments)
on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 at 2:03:01 PM
When the Iraq War came before Congress, everyone voted for it except for Representative Barbara Lee. Does that mean that no one voted for it? Does that mean the war was just?
These Jews exist, however small a minority they may be. They have a right to their opinions, whether they are right or wrong. Although they obviously do not represent the majority of Orthodox Jews, they are, by any definition, Jewish.
When a warmonger says, "If you're not with me, you're with the terrorists," all they do is drive peaceloving people into the arms of terrorists. That seems to be what the war in Iraq is accomplishing, and it may also be what the Palestinian Occupation is accomplishing. I say "may" because I really don't know.
Here's what I do know: I attended a seminar given by Israelis and Palestinians who are working together for peace. They have created a school where both teachers and students are both Israeli and Palestinian. They sponsor workshops where Israelis and Palestinians can meet, get to know each other, and pursue common goals. Everything they said made sense to me, and I respect their work. Yet I know that they are a tiny minority of Israelis and Palestinians.
Sometimes we humans have situations where everybody believes that the world is flat, and when one lone dissenter says that it isn't, they kill him for his heresy. But the world never was and is not now flat.
I have no patent on truth. Nobody does. The purpose of research, as I understand it, is to learn. I came across these people while researching other things. I think I may have learned something from them. I think that perhaps others might learn something from them also, if nothing more than the fact that they actually exist.
Obviously they do not represent all Orthodox Jews, but they don't claim to. While kissing terrorists may not be in conformance with Judaism, I suspect that oppressing one's neighbors and bombing civilians isn't either. Such actions have only decreased the status of the U.S. and Israel in world opinion.
Many people in the world only know one word of Hebrew and one word of Arabic. Those words are shalom and salaam, and both mean peace. With so many people repeating the word peace so many times a day, it is difficult to understand why they cannot achieve it. Perhaps the words have become meaningless through repetition. Perhaps people repeat the words without ever thinking about what they're saying. That in itself might be a fertile area for research.
Shalom. Salaam. Peace.
--Mark
by
Mark E. Smith (20 articles, 28 quicklinks, 68 diaries, 812 comments)
on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 at 2:52:38 PM
Every Orthodox organization, without exception, has denounced NK - even the non-Zionist Satmars.
And the fact that NK has marched in rallies on Saturdays (together with the fact that they are known to have been funded by Arafat in the past) indicates that it is possible that they are not even Orthodox themselves, and only seeking publicity.
The "500 family" claim is dubious at best.
For you to accept that they are a part of Orthodox Judaism when every other Orthodox group does not recognize them is akin to calling the Unification Church a Christian organization. Self-declarations are meaningless.
There are some Orthodox Jews who are passionately against what the Israeli government does, but none of them support Israel's enemies. Please do some real research beyond looking at the NK website.
by
Elder of Ziyon (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments)
on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 at 3:45:24 PM
Would someone who signs their name with a reference to a notorious anti-Semitic forgery, be representing Jews?
You wrote: "There are some Orthodox Jews who are passionately against what the Israeli government does, but none of them support Israel's enemies." So they are passionately against what the Israeli government does to its friends, but do not care what it does to its enemies?
Not all, of course, but some Jews seem to have gone out of their way to alienate everyone except the Christian fundamentalist Armageddonists, who want to see Israel destroyed anyway. As you just admitted, not everyone who opposes what the Israeli government does, is anti-Semitic.
Most Americans don't strictly observe the Sabbath and don't judge others by whether or not they do. If my neighbor steals my tv set, I don't care whether he goes to church, mosque, or synagogue regularly, I want my tv set back.
As far as I can tell, the Neturei Karta don't claim to represent Jews, they represent their own beliefs. They are a small group, but not as small as many may have thought, and they have little credibility. But President Bush doesn't have much credibility either. And when Bush threatens to nuke Iran, it just makes people who want a peaceful world and abhor weapons of mass destruction, think even less of Bush and perhaps even want to protect a country like Iran, which they might otherwise have little or no use for.
Respect isn't gained by force. The Nazis used a lot of force, but few people have any respect for them. When Bush struts and boasts and threatens, it does not command respect. When people sit in peace and talk, like that picture of the Neturei Karta and Ahmadinejad, those who oppose violence are apt to deem them worthy of respect.
Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. I certainly don't know. But I'll tell you right now that because they can explain their beliefs clearly, have not engaged in any violence that I know of, and they actually met with Ahmadinejad, I have more respect for them than I do for Bush, who cannot explain anything clearly, has perpetrated war crimes, and declined an invitation to debate the President of Iran.
A tiger, a panther, a bear, or a cobra can be more dangerously violent than a human being, but they cannot discuss, debate, or negotiate. For which ability should I have more respect?
by
Mark E. Smith (20 articles, 28 quicklinks, 68 diaries, 812 comments)
on Tuesday, September 26, 2006 at 5:10:59 PM
