Let's get this right once and for all.  The only people who aren't taken to the cleaners are the useless rich people who pay illegals to be slaves so they can get a higher volume of customers with slightly lower prices.  Anybody who has spent more than ten minutes looking at the problem knows that most of the illegals are here because America has done its best to denude all the other economies in the world.  We and Europe are the only honey pots left.

by John Hanks (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1760 comments [39 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:40:08 AM

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You can argue all you want, but the bottom line remains: immigration adds 180,000 people per month to this country. Legal and illegal aliens add over 2.1 million people per year. We're bursting at the seams with people and we're heading toward an unsustainable civilization where we all become victims of water crisis, energy crisis, crowding, loss of quality of life and climate change, etc. We either deal with this "human Katrina" or we all become victims or survivors. No one will win and everyone will lose. Just take a look around the world to see what's coming. It isn't pretty any way you cut it. FW

by Frosty Wooldridge (117 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 47 comments) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 11:06:31 AM

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Another true article about the cost of legal and illegal unchecked immigration

in terms of finances and resources.  When one reflects back over the past 20

years a pattern emerges that this problem has evolved by design in the slow

movement of Fabian Socialism rather than revolution.  What appears to be a

creation of a 2 tier system of the haves and the have nots, a destruction of the

middle class which has been America's strength.

by Joann (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 45 comments) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 1:13:34 PM

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to be erected by those whose most base fear is losing ethnic primacy.

The US isn't bursting at the seam.

 Nor are they aren't impacting the enviroment i.e., ruining your own personal sense of aesthetics. Nature exists for more than just the recreation of the white middle class.

If anything what we've been lacking is a more humane social system that recognizes that poor people also exists. 10years of neocon control has created as about unforgiving a social system and fostered a culture of desparation. The disappearing middle class has nothing to do with immigration but of economic policies that favored the corporate ruling class to the exclusion of all else.

You use phrases like "We either deal with this "human Katrina" or we all become victims or survivors. No one will win and everyone will lose."

Tell me that isn't  a bit of melodramatic xenophobia.

by chariotdrvr14 (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 159 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:20:58 PM

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Enstein said,"Only two things are infinite: they are the universe and human stupidity."  It's amazing how someone could write the aforementioned comment that adding 100 million people to the USA via immigration won't cause any problems.  Just go live in LA for a taste of what we face as a civilization if we allow unending, relentless and massive immigration.  Mexico grew from 50 to 104 million in the last century. They expect to grow to 300 in this century. If they cannot take care of 104 million today, what kind of human flood will they create for the USA in 50 years?  It will be enormous.  We're facing water shortages we cannot solve, gridlock forever, air pollution, species extinction, lowered quality of life, climate change directly connected to green house gases--and much more, but stupid minds talk about such stupid terms as xenophobe or racist or other such nonsense.  It won't matter what your race, creed or color is when this thing hits. Go ask any poor slob in Bangladesh with 144 million people in a landmass the size of Iowa.  I am constantly amazed that seemingly educated people validate Einstein's quote in 2008.  Okay, let's go full speed ahead and add another 100 million and then, another 100 million and 100 million after that.  We'll see what happens because we certainly don't want to be 'xenophobes'.  All the while, according to Time Magazine, 8 million adults die worldwide of starvation annually and 10 million children die of starvation or starvation related diseases each year.  Let's take in another 18 million starving people annually to save them, too.  How about a better idea?  How about birth control so those countries might reduce their numbers and live within their carrying capacity? Gees, what a 'xenophobic' idea whose time has come.  FW

by Frosty Wooldridge (117 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 47 comments) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:50:58 PM

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insist that building a wall should take the place of building a just society.

Throw around a flurry of numbers may impress the stupid minds you're used to lecturing to but it doesn't easily impress here.

 "Once the numbers are here, we will be saddled with Balkanization conflicts, over 100 foreign languages, accelerating diseases, cultural conflict and severe limits to our freedoms as the numbers grow out of control. However, that 'future' can be changed by you and your actions today."

Yes, this is indeed the talk of a xenophobe.  'Balkanization"?   "accelerating diseases"? WTF.... what diseases? Lou Dobbs of CNN went on about an increase in leprosy aka 'Hanson's Disease'... turned out his facts were wrong.... you don't get by simple contact and the numbers haven't risen since the late 70's. Tubercular diseases were eastern in origin and not southern.

And what's you're next point? Illegals add to starvation? America is not overpopulated, not yet. There's starvation here but it's simple slow malnutrition caused by bad economic policies and corporate greed.

Climate change maybe caused by populations but they're mainly industrial and agricultural and it's not going to matter if those people are on one continent or all of them...it's a combined cumulative effect. 

So, to me you're just using these for dramatic effect. 

by chariotdrvr14 (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 159 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 8:19:15 PM

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The dire predictions of Malthus, relating every ill to the "population explosion", could require the removal of some "extraneous" people...like Malthus himself(?). 

In this new millennium, it is a fact that whites of the so-called first and second world consume (and waste) far more of the world's resources than their pigmented brothers from elsewhere. Why is it so hard to share the planet?

Ironically, it is the "illegal immigrant" as referenced in Mr. Frosty's piece, who is the descendant of the original human beings who were invaded centuries ago by the conquering armies of Europe in search of gold and treasure to plunder. 

As to the twisted statistics, like the incredible cost-benefit analysis of the financial impact of these people's behaviors, I believe they give far more than they take.  They fragment their families and risk their lives to enter the hostile homeland of Uncle Sam and his surly nephews.  They take grueling, exhausting jobs, paying their taxes and supporting the social service system of the general population with no intention of (deliberately) receiving any benefit. 

They send money home to support hungry family members who cannot make it in the "free-market" i.e.degraded economies of their own homeland.  If the value of their contribution is measured in man-hours of sweat and toil, not to mention taxes and cultural creativity (we don't all march or tango to the same lockstep or drumbeat...diversity is nice), these "illegals" contribute billions.

The artificial barriers to human interaction are in my opinion stumbling blocks to progress, not levies but moats.  I think a frank look at the economic warfare and centuries of exploitation this nation has engaged in worldwide  would better explain the miserable plight of the working class in both places.  

I have learned of children of immigrants who seek citizenship to contribute to the "American dream", not exploit it, even sacrificing their lives to "serve" in the U.S. military.  These are among the fresh faces whose energy frequently reflects the very idealism that the colonists themselves must have felt arriving here (to a warmer welcome from the natives) centuries ago.

Frosty seems like a nature-lover, an athlete, and a lover of life, how sad it is that the sense of ownership has yellowed his love of country.  I am looking forward to the day that we embrace, not exclude each other, and that we refer to our space in terms of bio-regions, not nation states, as we tackle the massive problems and opportunities of our beloved planet.

by ladyguru (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 36 comments) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 5:26:21 PM

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Yet another liberal milksop confusing legal and illegal immigrants. illegal immigrants pay ZERO taxes. How can they without social security numbers? Illegal immigrants get paid in cash and do not file tax returns. Filing tax returns tells the government where they are so they can be rounded up and deported. they aren't so stupid as to tell the government right where they are. 

by Watching (0 articles, 1 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 313 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 6:08:44 PM

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You say immigrants pay less taxes, that is only partly true. LEGAL immigrants pay less in taxes because they want to be good citizens and stay here LEGALLY. ILLEGAL immigrants, on the other hand, are most likely to be paid in cash and pay ZERO taxes. Is it any wonder that cities in this country face crushing budget shortfalls? How can any government make ends meet when larger and larger percentages of their populations are illegal aliens? The so called 'sanctuary cities' had better wake up and realize that if they don't start co-operating with immigration officials to get these people out of here there won't be any money to pay their fat salaries. 

by Watching (0 articles, 1 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 313 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 6:05:04 PM

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Good article Frosty!

Only wealthy out of touch liberals or sociopathic, conservative, increase my profits at all costs types would disagree with you. Those are the two extremes who lack the vision and common sense to uphold the rule of law and look out for the current and future success of America and its citizens.

Just look at California and Los Angeles in particular. The state is bankrupt and Los Angeles is a cesspool of gangs the police are not even allowed to arrest. Los Angeles will soon be a burned out gang owned territory much like one would see in some movie portraying a blighted city of the future.

America needs to apply the rule of law. Our immigration laws have been carefully crafted to avoid any kind of discrimination but some socio ethnic special interest groups feel that members of their own ethnic group should be exempt from our laws. Justice is blind and does not grant preference based on race or ethnicity.

by Gary Denson (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 283 comments) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:36:35 PM

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"Only wealthy out of touch liberals or sociopathic, conservative, increase my profits at all costs types would disagree with you. Those are the two extremes who lack the vision and common sense to uphold the rule of law and look out for the current and future success of America and its citizens.

ust look at California and Los Angeles in particular. The state is bankrupt and Los Angeles is a cesspool of gangs the police are not even allowed to arrest. Los Angeles will soon be a burned out gang owned territory much like one would see in some movie portraying a blighted city of the future."

by chariotdrvr14 (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 159 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 7:59:54 PM

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Arizona is on its way to solving its huge problem with illegals. They are doing something novel in Maricopa County to take care of the problem. They are actually enforcing the immigration laws. The hospitals are full, the jails are full, and the schools are full so it about time. Businesses are posting signs in English and Spanish saying that they will check social security numbers. The word is that the illegals have or are going to leave the state and go to Texas. The county sheriff is conducting sweep of Mesa AZ within the next week or two, looking for illegals and other criminals. If other states would do the same we would see mass self deportation.

If illegal immigration bothers you, find out what each candidate's stand on it is and vote accordingly. That is the only way, when these clowns get the message that the free ride is over, that things will change.

Are these people slaves? They could be. Employers take advantage of them because they know the illegals will not report them. Coyotes get most of their pay until they repay the fee for sneaking them into the country. Illegals are found shot to death in the desert all the time in Arizona because they didn't pay the coyotes. These poor, usually hardworking decent, people come to this country to work and to make their lives better and wind up being slaves and living in total fear. We have to come up with a better way to have them come and work that protects them.

by Mad Jayhawk (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 652 comments [56 recommended, 3 rejected]) on Saturday, Apr 12, 2008 at 10:04:53 PM

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I have some inoromation for you, Frosty, if you're interested in something other than just repeating the Zombie Right's racist talking points. It is evident that you're completely unfamiliar with the immigrants themselves. But just in case you're actually a good person and merely lacking good information here goes:

1. Illegal immigration increased dramatically after 2004, with Bill Clinton's success in the passing of GATT and NAFTA. As intended, these treaties dried up decent paying jobs in Mexico, driving workers North to find work so their families don't starve. When jobs can't be exported, the next best thing is to drive down wages in the US with an oversupply of cheap labor. Your Government WANTS them here, because it's very profitable for the wealtiest 1%. You with me so far, Frosty?

2. Ever notice how you can buy crack on any urban street corner, but you can't find a cigar or a pair of pajamas or even a pencil made in Cuba? When the Government wants something kept out, it is kept out. Drugs and illegal immigrants are fine, Cuban pencils are not. A fence won't work; they know it won't work. They're building it to trick dumb people into thinking they're trying.

3. Frosty, how can you possibly not know that the vast majority of illegals pay taxes, same as anyone else? (Except people who are too rich to work.) Maybe 3% get paid in cash--the rest work in factories, and car dealerships, and airports and every other low-paying job you can think of. They use forged Social Security cards (duh), which the employers know are forged. The difference is that the illegals pay IN to Social Security (about $70 Billion per year, I believe) but they never get to take any of it OUT. Current estimates are that about 8% of the current Social Security fund has been paid in by illegals who will never see a dime of that money. But you will, and I will. When you cash your check, thank a Mexican.

4. The language "problem" will last one-generation--most of the kids now are so bilingual they filp back and forth between Spanish and English without even realizing it. White kids, too.

5. If I were Canadian, I might be pushing for a fence to keep Americans out. As the US economy collapses (see #1 above) and American workers try to get jobs in Canada so we can feed our families and get health care, the attempt to go North will be inevitable. The difference is, Canada is serious about keeping out illegal immigrants and America is not.

6. Like welfare, the resources used by illegal aliens are a pittance compared to the wholesale theft of the Treasury by the Bush Administation and their buddies in the war business and oil. A twelve inch main is broken and gushing, and you're worried about a few drops. It just doesn't make any sense unless you're one of the gullible people who watch O'Reilly and Rush and think that's truth. I think that to be fooled that much for that long, you have to want it to be the truth. If you're more interested in feeding your prejudice than in understanding the real problem, don't expect it to change.

JP

by JonmarkP (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 111 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Apr 13, 2008 at 3:02:35 AM

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A border fence has one purpose. To keep Americans from fleeing their own country.

by Ty (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 888 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:53:04 PM

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