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June 23, 2007 at 21:17:22

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely Wrong

by Dennis Diehl

www.opednews.com

 
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Goodmorning...I used to be one of you. I know how you think and the Biblical brainwashing you have been through that makes you think the way you do about world events, Biblical prophecy, the Second Coming of Jesus and the Kingdom of God on earth. I know how ministers and pastors, most well meaning, but full of sanctified ignorance and misunderstanding of the intent, origins, errancy and the historical inaccuracies of much we read in the Bible, have filled your minds with misguided zeal. I know how you read and understand the prophecies of the four kingdoms of Daniel and the dreams of Nebuaccanezzar, King of Babylon. I doubt you know they were written after the fact which is why they seem so amazingly accurate. I know you won't like what I know.

I know how you read Daniel 11 and 12 as just how things will be "in the end times." I know how some of you think "a thousand will fall at your right side, and ten thousand at your left, but it will not come nigh unto your dwelling." I know how you read Matthew 24. I know some of you think that you will be "born up on eagles wings" and taken to a "place of safety," maybe in Petra, Jordan to wait out the end time carnage that you see in the Trumpets, Vials, plagues and Horsemen of Revelation. Some of you have already left and some left years ago, only to return and get back to work.

I know you read the Book of Revelation as if it was a newspaper and see these times as those times and that book as revealing all that is about to happen so Jesus can return. I know you have forgotten that 2000 years ago the opening of the Revelation says "to show unto my servants, things which must SHORTLY, come to pass." I know that you view "shortly" differently than most people understand "shortly." I know some of you think you are part of the exclusive 144,000 thousand. I know you don't understand Gematria or the 12 signs of the Zodiac but I spare you.

I know that even though you know Paul said Jesus, for sure, would come in his lifetime, and that he was among the "We, who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall be caught up together with the Lord, and WE shall be saved,"  Paul was wrong. I know you know that later in his life, Paul gave up on Jesus coming for him in his lifetime and said that he had fought a good fight, kept the faith and would have to settle for a crown of righteousness that he'd get later, but not soon anymore.

 I know you know that Paul motivated the church to not marry the loves of their lives, give lots of money to the church and be ready to go at a moments notice, in vain. I always wonder about the people who believe what Paul said about the times being short and it being better to not marry and be like him. Did they get really bitter when their lives passed and Jesus didn't return, nor did they get to be intimate with the ones they loved because Paul said not to? I bet they did anyway, just like today in all churches who try to regulate relationships. The minister gets to rant about such things, but most just sneak around and do what they want anyway. You can thank Paul and his misquided view of the immediacy of Jesus return in HIS lifetime for the skepticism of most today.  The scoffers of the last days were created by the mistaken of times past.

I know that you know Jesus said in Matthew 24 that "this generation shall not a pass until all these things be fulfilled" and that since we now know it was not the generation of Jesus this happened for, Jesus was not ill informed, but rather meant that the generation that these things happened in, would see it through. This allows you to motivate others by drawing your attention to all that is happening in your world as proof of this being all about YOU. That's the apologetic, but that is not what Jesus, who was mistaken about this meant, when he is alleged to have said it.

I know that you know "no man knows the day or the hour, but the Father only," but choose to ignore that and predict, predict, predict to put fear, fear, fear, into each other. Or as one said, "Just because we don't know the day or the hour doesn't mean we can't know the month or the year." Right..

I know that the gayness of some people, the lack of belief of others, the movies, TV and all the events going on in the Middle East are proof that you won't have to wait much longer for Jesus. Little does the Pastor know that out of every 100 members of his church, about 10 are going to be gay by nature and that the same would be true for the 100 of the clergy he got together with at his last ministerial conference where they condemned it. I know you know that all fundamentalist college campuses have a normal number of gay students in attendance. Or maybe you don't. I know they are in denial on this topic but I spare you. Oh, and this would include the faculty of course.

I know you believe the nation of Israel is the most special of God's holy nations and that as one man said to me, "anyone who picks on Israel, is challenging God himself." I know you don't believe that anyone who picks on Afghanistan is picking on God. I have to say that meme has gone a long way to insure the safety of that small rather troublesome piece of the planet. The tales of the Old Testament have insured that the rules and ways of an obscure deity, on an obscure mountain, in an obscure land, speaking to an obscure people about obscure and dictatorial and controlling obcure practices, are relevant to today. They mostly aren't. My experience is that when a nation, government, president, church or group "can do no wrong," wrong is all they get good at. I know you know that too but don't apply it to the group you associate with. You should.

I know you are told you are special and that others are not. I know that you are told you are chosen and called, while others are not chosen and not called. I know you believe you have special saving knowledge while others are lost. I know you are told that you are true and others false. I know you are led to believe that your thinking is correct on all topics biblical and prophectic and all others are wrong. I know you can't imagine you are wrong about a hundred biblical ideas and speculations, but you are.

I know you think that this President was put in power by God himself but I am not sure that you know that even he says he hears the voice of God, which is why he went to war. I know when others hear the voice of God in your local congregation, you marginalize them and think they are weird and strange or may need help. But on a national scale, you seem to accept the voice of God in the heads of men who can start a war that leads to everything BUT the Second Coming. I know you can't imagine having to clean up after such a mistake because I know you can't imagine any biblical or prophetic mistakes being made. But they are being made big time and cleaning up after the shit hits the fan, may be all you get to do, and of course, be asked what went wrong and where is Jesus?

I know you are afraid to die personally, just as every human being before you has. I know you, like Paul, prefer to be "changed," at the sound of the trumpet and not die at all. After all, Paul said "we would not all die." I am not sure you realize he had to retract that later in life. They all had to retract it.

I know how you feel about "God's Law" and how much better off we'd all be if we kept "it." But I also know you aren't real sure which ones to keep. Sabbath over Sunday? Passover over Easter? Holydays over holidays? I know some think parents should still get to stone rebellious children. I know you are nuts if you think that. I know you know that "God's Law" means different things to differrent people and I know that you tend to confuse what to keep from the Old Testament nation of Israel and drag it over into the New and the Church... well, except tithing of course.

I know how you think we are all spiritual Israelites, but how would you feel if someone kept calling you a spiritual Zulu in order to be saved? How about a Spiritual Sioux? Actually I'd love that but that's my preference.

I also know, because I was one of you, that you don't know near as much as you think you know. You're knowing is, at times, wishful thinking, or sanctified ignorance based on the sole fact that it's what you have always been taught. I know that learning new perspectives is not something you are encouraged to do. I know that admitting you are wrong is not something you are often able to do. When science makes a mistake, it admits it and uses whatever information was good for future studies. When religion and churches make mistakes, they kill the people who point it out. That's how it goes.

But I also know that over zealous pastors and fundamentalists need to be cautioned about your zealotry gone wrong. Zealous and sanctified ignorance can provoke all the Vials, Trumpets, Trombones and Beasts of Revelation and you will get everything promoted in the Book of Revelation EXCEPT the Second Coming. What you will get is one big mess to clean up, if you survive along with the rest of us. You'll get a place in history as the reason why the next generation wants nothing to do with organized religion or ministers and pastors who can't admit they are wrong and it's not all about them after all. You'll reap a whirlwind but not the Kingdom of God to bale you out.

While the President may or may not have said, "God told me to strike at Sadaam and I did...", it has never in the history of the planet worked out well when society has let religion call the shots as to what is and what isn't. I know you know that. I just hope you will think long and hard about the chaos fundamentalism of any kind, Islamic or Christian can bring to the lives of well meaning humans who simply want to be left alone to live, learn and love without the drama of religious ignorance.

 

 

Dennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors. 

 

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Eileen is the Reporter and Editor of wearewideawake.orgProducer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu" Author of "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory" She has been to Israel Palestine five times since June 2005.
She is currently working on "The Boom Boom Benny Story"

Eileen FlemingEileen is the Reporter and Editor of wearewideawake.orgProducer of "30 Minutes with Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu" Author of "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory" She has been to Israel Palestine five times since June 2005.
She is currently working on "The Boom Boom Benny Story"

Dear Ex-Fundamentalist

To read such bold wisdom from a trained pastor is most encouraging, THANKS Dennis for speaking up!

Usually change filters from the grass roots up; but you turned that upside down;

 

Just as Jesus turned the world upside down when he said:

You must LOVE your enemies and do good towards them,

 And as he DID when he remained NONVIOLENT even while being mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross.

 

IMAGINE when all we Christians actually do what Jesus did and said;

And break out of the FEAR of the other that is the very fuel of fundamentalism.

 

I also wonder what you think of the fact that the very first mention of Israel in the Hebrew Scriptures is in Genesis when Jacob was renamed ISRAEL for having wrestled; struggled with The Divine;

 

My intuition tells me ANYONE who struggles and wrestles with God is ALSO Israel too;

 

Thus Israel is NOT just a 20th century geographical location.

 

e

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

 

 

 

 

by Eileen Fleming (140 articles, 49 quicklinks, 264 diaries, 584 comments) on Sunday, June 24, 2007 at 11:16:23 AM
 


Dennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   
Dennis DiehlDennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   

Thanks

Thanks for your observations.  Yes, I find the Jesus of the Gospels to be in no way the Jesus of Fundamentalism or the book of Revelation.  I just sent in an article on getting rid of "Onward Christian Soliders"  as a hymn:)  There is too much of that and always has been.

by Dennis Diehl (68 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 55 comments) on Sunday, June 24, 2007 at 11:55:14 AM
 


I was born in 1942 (actually) although Social Security says 1940.  Was involved in the hay day of Mattachine Society and Hal (Harold) Call, the Society for Individual Rights (SIR), worked as an independent author-writer: San Francisco Examiner, Sentinel, Bay Area Reporter (BAR) etc.  An original member of the San Francisco Police Community Relations commission servng under the then Police Chief Cahill. Originator of St. Jude's Halfway House (Several through out the U.S.A which...

to see more of bio, click on member name

apostlethaddeusI was born in 1942 (actually) although Social Security says 1940.  Was involved in the hay day of Mattachine Society and Hal (Harold) Call, the Society for Individual Rights (SIR), worked as an independent author-writer: San Francisco Examiner, Sentinel, Bay Area Reporter (BAR) etc.  An original member of the San Francisco Police Community Relations commission servng under the then Police Chief Cahill. Originator of St. Jude's Halfway House (Several through out the U.S.A which...

to see more of bio, click on member name

That's Enough

Have to admit, your article HIT HOME! Pretty much everything you said is true. However, not being a part of the Protestant Fumendamentalist "Evangelical" cults, I cannot fathom their approach or their theology either.

I find most of them incapable or unwilling to even dialogue... But, of course, on looking at what is happening with the "humanism" and Synchrestic Ecumenicalism of the Roman Jurisdiction of the Catholic Church (who claim or believe - errantly so - that they are the sun and moon of who is or who is not "Catholic") leaves a foul taste in the mouth of those who know the truth of what is happening.

The hands of history and time cannot change that which has been prophesied ... May be I'm all wet in this thinking... I would like to think that I, and those with me in spirit and truth are on the right track? We don't hold our breath in this though. We struggle out of pain of heart for the faith once delivered...

+Joseph Thaddeus (Stanford), OSB, SSJt., Ph.D.
American Orthodox Church - North American Orthodox Church
http://www.apostle1.com

by apostlethaddeus (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 2 comments) on Sunday, June 24, 2007 at 6:11:01 PM
 


Robert Chapman is greatly interested in developing political awareness among as many people as possible.
Robert ChapmanRobert Chapman is greatly interested in developing political awareness among as many people as possible.

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely"

I understand that a lot of people just blow off religion.

But for those of us who take it seriously and who reject the fundamentalist doctrines as illogical and culturally biased misinterpretations of scripture, Mr. Diehl has provided a well-reasoned and scripturally sound rebuttal to the fundamentalists major shiboleths.

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely

Should be published and placed on the bulletin board of every seminary in America.

It is time that the defenders of fundamentalism hear the criticisms other Christians have about their doctrines.  All too often all they hear are false statements planted in mouths of straw men by their pastors.

To hold honestly to their doctrines, the fundamentalists MUST adress the honest criticism that their brothers and sisters in faith offer.

Similarly, Christians who do not hold fundamentalist views have needed a well articulated and biblically based set of rebuttals to riposte the agressive and erroneous teaching of the fundamentalists.

Fellow readers, please allow me to conclude my remarks with a public moment of reflection and prayer that we Christians may get past our doctrinal spats and return to St. James' definition of true religion which is the support of widows and orphans.

by Robert Chapman (28 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 557 comments) on Monday, June 25, 2007 at 8:59:59 AM
 


Don'pigeon hole me or sterotype me
pratliff94Don'pigeon hole me or sterotype me

Dennis: Article has no place on this blog

It would be very helpful if you would give Book, Chapter and verses to you argument for without them it is sorta like trying to nail jello to the wall.

You accuse of much and say nothing; for instance, the Apostle Paul wrote fourteen of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament; seven of those books were written during the Acts Period when Jesus of Nazareth was being offered to the Jews as their Messiah. The promise was simple: if they would repent from rejecting Him, Jesus would return immediately. This offer was made by Peter at Pentecost in Acts 2:1+ and was continued by the Twelve Disciples in the Land to Jews living in Judah and Galilee.

The Apostle Paul went to the "dispersion" or Jews who lived outside the land offering to those Jews the same thing Peter was offering to Jews in the land. This colors everything Paul writes in these first seven letters. The return of Christ is expected to happen very shortly with Israel accepting Him as Messiah. During this time Paul always went to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles when the Jews would not receive him. Many Jews became Christians; in fact every convert through the book of Acts until Act 16 are Jews: Peter the Twelve Disciples, Paul, Timothy, Barnabas, Apollos, Titus, Philemon, Onsisiphorus, Luke, Stephen, Ethiopian Eunuch, Silas, Pricilla and Aquila and thousands of others were all Jews.

Israel rejected both Peter's and Paul's offer; so Paul says that God had set Israel aside (Acts 28) and was calling out a "new body;" that  new body is called the "body of Christ" and was created by God. It was a "mystery" not revealed in the Old Testament, nor the Gospels. The hope was not on earth but in Heaven (Ephesians 1:3-4), and all who accept Christ as their Lord while believing He died for their sins, was buried for seventy-two hours, rose again from the dead and ascended to Heaven would have this Heavenly hope. The last seven letters of Paul holds forth this hope and it is why the Muslims hate the Apostle Paul so much and call him "the snake." Paul preaches the Gospel of Grace which is a curse to Islam.  

You do not have to believe any of this and have the privilege of calling it garbage. That is not my gripe.

My gipe is that you are attacking all Christians and falsely calling it an attack on "Fundamentalism." All Christians believe Christ died for their sins; all Christians believe Christ rose again from the dead; all Christians believe he was in the grave three days and three nights; all Christians believe He ascended to Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Heavenly Father making intercession for them; all Christians believing He is coming back to receive them into glory. Your attack is on all Christians, not just the FunDamMentalists.

Again, my gripe is that your article is a blatant attack on Christianity on a politcal blog that is supposed to be a blog dealing with political issues. Your article has no place on this blog just as an attack on Islam or Buddhism or Hinduism has no place.

I could give you a refutation for each one of you points which have been proven false time and again. If you do not believe me, go to Google, and type in Reformed Theology, find one of their web  sites ("links to reformed sites" is the best and will give you dozens of choices), type out your accusations against Christianity. They will eat you alive and spit you out. Though I disgree with them on some of their theology, I will give them credit that they are masters at apologetics.

Again, I can refute each of your points, but it takes up far too much space on this blog and takes far too much time of which I do not have a lot to waste.

You need a few good college course on Church history and Biblical Archeology. I would recommend a non-Christian archeology magazine: Biblical Archeological Review. I have no personal connection to it, but it is probably one of the best out there.

You make one other serious error. You believe all Christians are part of the political right. My first vote was in 1960 when I voted for John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson. I have voted in every election the last forty-six years. I have never voted for a Republican. I am a conservative Christian and a liberal in politics.  I find they go hand in hand on most issues; in fact Christians have always been on the cutting edge of social reform; remember, Martin Luther King was Reverend Martin Luther King, a Baptist minister.

 

by pratliff94 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 948 comments) on Monday, June 25, 2007 at 10:27:18 AM
 


Dennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   
Dennis DiehlDennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   

Thank you

Well, we have had different experiences with religion and been on different roads.  I see you have hundreds of comments but no articles of your own. Feel free.   Oped publishes what it wishes to. I have no control over that.  You hardly know me as a person and assume much in your defensive perspective.  But that's ok.  We are all at different places in the experience of living and believing...

 

 

by Dennis Diehl (68 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 55 comments) on Monday, June 25, 2007 at 11:22:42 AM
 


Dennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   
Dennis DiehlDennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   

a little balance from others.....

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely"

I understand that a lot of people just blow off religion.

But for those of us who take it seriously and who reject the fundamentalist doctrines as illogical and culturally biased misinterpretations of scripture, Mr. Diehl has provided a well-reasoned and scripturally sound rebuttal to the fundamentalists major shiboleths.

Christian Fundamentalism -- The High Cost of Being Sincerely

Should be published and placed on the bulletin board of every seminary in America.

It is time that the defenders of fundamentalism hear the criticisms other Christians have about their doctrines.  All too often all they hear are false statements planted in mouths of straw men by their pastors.

To hold honestly to their doctrines, the fundamentalists MUST adress the honest criticism that their brothers and sisters in faith offer.

by Dennis Diehl (68 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 55 comments) on Monday, June 25, 2007 at 11:25:23 AM
 


Al Krass coordinates the work of the Coalition for Peace Action in Bucks and Montgomery Counties. A formed United Church of Christ minister, he lives in Levittown PA.
Al KrassAl Krass coordinates the work of the Coalition for Peace Action in Bucks and Montgomery Counties. A formed United Church of Christ minister, he lives in Levittown PA.

Who said what and when?

You've said a lot of things extremely well, Dennis. As for Paul being wrong about dates and times, as a Christian I have little trouble believing that he erred. That's because he wrote-- or dictated-- what is in his verifiably original letters. But when you say Jesus was wrong about dates and times, another element enters in: he wrote nothing. Everything we have as a "word" from him was written by someone else, after a period of 30-50 years of oral tradition. My belief is that Jesus himself was pretty agnostic about this ("of that day and of that hour, no one knows-- not even the Son") But others thought that scripture guaranteed that the end was near (thank Heaven for Luke, who did a lot to reconceptualize Christian hope after it was clear the Second Coming had in fact not occurred in their lifetime!) and so they report that Jesus said X or Y when we do not know that Jesus in fact spoke those words.  So what would he advise us? To be agnostic-- admit we don't know when this will happen, and rest assured that  God's"got the whole world in his hands," and we don't need to worry.

by Al Krass (5 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 9 comments) on Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 1:13:46 PM
 


Dennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   
Dennis DiehlDennis Diehl is a former pastor of 26 years,  who outgrew the Literalism of Fundamentalism.  He writes about Pastoral and Church abuse and is available to speak on such topics or be helpful to any church suffering under abusive religion or pastors.   

You are right.

Yes, you are right.  Many words were placed in the mouth of Jesus where no real words were known.  Actually the evolving church was responsible for this and did so to fit the times they actually were in and to fix the problems caused by previous declarations I suspect.  Paul was clearly wrong about the times in which he lived as 100% of all since been, and the lives of those effected by "time is short" is probably very sad as they did what they thought was right as do most today.

by Dennis Diehl (68 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 55 comments) on Thursday, June 28, 2007 at 1:38:44 PM
 

 

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