While I'm certainly NOT a 911Truther and often post counter-arguments in the obvious need for "objectivity", I think those within the Truth movement should read fully and incorporate honestly Ms. Roberts' words.

by Tom Murphy (3 articles, 5 quicklinks, 16 diaries, 2103 comments [55 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 9:41:43 AM

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.

I challenge the credible quality of any 'objectivity' until it is thought of in terms such as THIS SAYS.  

Which is:  Reproducible Results.   Within the Uniform Code of Universal Laws, i.e. natural science.

by meremark (1 articles, 3 quicklinks, 30 diaries, 572 comments [22 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 2:58:41 PM

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As a Founder of the 9/11 Truth Movement - I Disagree with the premise of this article.

The author complains about the movement infighting, and then proceeds to fight with the movement.

The author complains about 9/11 truth movements having fund raising DVDs, t-shirts, etc.

Apparently the author has never organized a movement, because, helloooooo???   It costs money.

Most of the people I worked with spent much of their life savings to help build the 9/11 truth movement.  Fundraising ideas only came about after we all went broke!

It is obvious this author hasn't really done much to build a 9/11 truth movement.

I encourage all to get involved with:

911Truth.org
ae911truth.org
TruthAction.org
WeAreChange.org

and the many other 9/11 truth organizations out there.  Don't waste your time writing articles to dispirit everyone like this author did.

There are great courageous people out there doing great work.  Join with them, and get moving.  Our democracy depends on it.

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 10:28:38 AM

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Bill *this author* is not discouraging anyone from anything, but the incessant infighting that has created so much fragmentation the movement is diluted.

WRT fundraising, that is what I do for a living and as an activist. Everyone knows it costs money, but when you have someone selling a t-shirt that cost them $4 or less to have made for $20, and stating that the proceeds/profits go to a charity only to find out that a mere $1 of that $16 profit goes to the charity...that's a falsehood and makes all Truthers trying to raise funds look bad. That was the point, and it is unfortunate you missed it.

Additionally, you as a *founder*? I would have to qualify myself also as a founder then as I have been a part of the Truth movement since Dec. of 2001. I don't see your reasoning for mentioning that. A one-upmanship? More of *turf wars* I mentioned in my Op-ed?

I do not belong to a specific group, but am affiliated with many of the ones you mention in your reply. I work with many groups as an individual helping to pull them together and helping them organize events. As a matter of fact, contact Richard Gage of AE911Truth if you so desire, he'd vouch for me. So will Peter Phillips of Project Censored.

This wasn't a pissing contest, but it is somewhat amusing yet thoroughly disheartening that your post nails my point home perfectly.

Together in the struggle...

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 10:58:30 AM

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Buy an Architect/Engineer Lunch and Feed them 9/11 Truth

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 11:01:02 AM

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If you go to an Earth Day Event, if you go to any altruistic event, or political event, T-shirts are sold for alot more than they cost to print.  They are FUND RAISERS.

If you want a free movement, then build a website, and get a professional email system, and print signs and distribute them around the nation, and do it all out of your own pocket.

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 11:03:22 AM

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If it costs $4 to make, it sells for $20, you SAY to all those buying that the PROCEEDS/PROFITS go to a charity, yet only a tiny percentage actually goes to the charity does that not make those saying such a thing liars? That sort of stuff rubs off on the whole movement.

Why not say the Truth, after all that is what we stand for right? Why not say when pushing your wares that only $1 goes to the charity and the rest is for whatever? You know why they don't? It's because when they lead people to believe they are sending all the money to the charity they sell more. So if someone has a $16 profit and sells say 20 of the products at that profit margin, the group telling the lie makes $300 for their pockets and the charity gets only $20...

I have nothing more to say on the rest of your postings here as they are geared to perpetuate the lie apparently, and actually make little sense wrt the OP. Additionally your comments seem geared to divide, not unify.

Have a great day Bill. I wish you success in all you do. 

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 11:20:46 AM

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So much for the concept of "United we stand..."

by Tom Murphy (3 articles, 5 quicklinks, 16 diaries, 2103 comments [55 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 11:00:56 AM

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I encourage all to GET INVOLVED with the many stellar groups out there doing great and courageous work to save our democracy by demanding truth:

911Truth.org
ae911truth.org
TruthAction.org
WeAreChange.org

and the many other 9/11 truth organizations out there. 

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 11:05:46 AM

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Which of course was the whole premise of the OP, unity...wonders never cease do they?

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 11:34:00 AM

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...as can be expected. Nobody is perfect, not even "the movement". Personally speaking, I hate it when anyone asks for "donations". We have a lot of honest people walking around....

in Nebraska & Kansas & maybe even Iowa

but the moment a guy dressed as a priest comes up to you in, at, around or near any major airport in the US of A, ......shut down and shut up or get ready for a royal visitation ! The same philosophy applies to any URL on the www. yip.

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:26:45 PM

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From Bill's own keyboard...involvement since *2006* apparently makes him a *founder* of the 911 Truth movement? Geez Louise Bill....take a breath buddy and maybe re-read what I wrote because your interpretation is certainly not what I said.

I am aware of who you are and enjoy reading your pieces when I come across them. I encourage others to read your stuff, because it's all good. I know you do good work within the movemwent, but here today I see little more than that *starmanship* and *paranoia* I was talking about. To immediately try to trump me and my op-ed by beginning with false facts stating you are a *founder* of the 911 Truth movement?

We are on the same team Bill. Did you forget that or are you just not a team player?

Exposing the 9/11 Conspiracy Wingnuts

By Bill Douglas

07/13/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- I began researching the mainstream media coverage of the controversy regarding the attacks of 9/11/2001, when reading an article in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel Newspaper, dated June 29th, 2006. ...

 http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13969.htm

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 12:53:53 PM

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if you read the article you posted you'd see that it said that's when he started researching the MSM controversy

and if you'd googled Bill Douglas and 9/11 Truth, you'd know he was active within months of the attacks 

Here's a summary he recently wrote 

www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20071206221951199 

I have never corresponded with Mr. Douglas, but since finding out about the lies Summer 05, i've come across many, many articles he's written, and articles documenting constructive actions he's taken or been part of

Bill, thanks for everything you've done and will do for truth and justice 

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1112 comments [57 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 1:17:06 PM

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Thank you! I appreciate the heads up and apologize to Bill for my mistake on that timeline. Kudos to Bill for hanging in there all these years. I know if it has been anywhere near as difficult for him and his family as it has been for me and mine then he has been through a lot. I am grateful to my children for understanding the sacrifices. My family itself has never understood.

Bill out of curiousity, why did it take you til then to research the msm? I would have thought you as a writer would have began there...I believe there is a way to crack the system wrt the msm.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 1:34:49 PM

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As a relatively new 9/11 truth seeker that has become totally committed to the movement, I wrote my recent article that is still rumbling through the Internet "9/11 Truth Manifesto" because it seemed clear to me that the movement had not yet come together behind specific political strategies to achieve success.  As a Ph.D. engineer, I am totally convinced that extremely sound technical analyses have shown that the official story is a lie.  But technical truth must help produce political truth.  I urge all truth seekers, for example, to see the wisdom of the movement coming together to draft and lobby for passage of a bill to get the first honest 9/11 investigation funded by Congress.

by Joel S. Hirschhorn (141 articles, 50 quicklinks, 65 diaries, 546 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 12:37:20 PM

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There are all sorts of things traveling through Congress. Wilke I agree in thought with what you say - and of course it would hold truer in an ordinary America, I find it quite disconcerting now.

How do we get Congress to do anything in relation to 911 when they support things like the Patriot Act and HR 1959, S1955? Rep. Henry Waxman wont even hold public hearings under oath for Sibel Edmonds. THAT, would be a hell of a start, don't you think?

Many of us have been at this for a long time and we have tried many avenues. I think if there were an OVERWHELMING show of support in an undeniable and unignorable way then we could make something positive happen. 

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 at 9:37:19 AM

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i agree that people should put aside their egos (esp. Tom Murphy) to further larger objectives, but i think the spontaneous and decentralized nature of the "9/11 Truth Movement" is great, as it is harder for the neo-COINTELPRO to subvert/control it. Many of the supposed divisions are being caused by people who are agents of disinformation, if not active disinformation agents. I'm not concerned by it.

I'd say the movement is growing fast, not sluggishly- the most recent poll on 9/11, from Scripps-Howard found that 62% of Americans think people in the govt knew the attacks were coming and did nothing- this huge number is not because the MSM have been criticizing the official story- they've been actively shilling for it- it's because the official story falls apart when it's examined, cuz the govt has never answered the major questions and told so many lies, cuz we have the Web and activists are daily posting info and handing out DVDs and flyers.

A paradigm shift is happening, and eventually the wall that the elites have build between the People and Our government is going to come down- and if martial law is declared and activists are rounded up into camps, even more people will oppose the Republocrats, including the entire civilized world.

What are these elites thinking? Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Stalin, etc.- they all fell. As Ghandi noted, the tyrants always fall, always.

People want to be free, and the truth has a way of coming out

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1112 comments [57 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 1:04:14 PM

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Converting people into seeing the Truth is different then converting them into the movement. A million new believers does not make the movement any more powerful or visable if those million more are silent...that's more what I was saying there.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 1:26:26 PM

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Thank you for taking my personal inventory, BWO.  I will endeavor to work on the obvious character defect that you so graciously pointed out.  Additionally, I will also endeavor to avoid harboring a resentment toward you for so graciously pointing out the character defect. 

Knowingly, though, my expectation was high that such comments would be made about me and my positions here; therefore, my acceptance on the issue was readily capable of handling your "critque".  Again, thank you!

by Tom Murphy (3 articles, 5 quicklinks, 16 diaries, 2103 comments [55 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:03:02 PM

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and i'd still like to hear your thoughts on the evidence of the Saudi's involvement in the 9/11 attacks- i've repeatedly asked you, but you've never responded- should this not be investigated? Does this not change what we've been told, i.e. al Qaeda alone?

Sen. Graham's comments to Gwen Ifill on PBS 

www.thememoryhole.org/911/911-graham-admits.htm 

for more background, spend some time on the Complete 9/11 Timeline

www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project 

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1112 comments [57 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:32:29 PM

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I'm relatively new in the truth movement, only discovered the many sites and began systematically reviewing all the posts/videos/documents about two years ago.  Prior to that, I had no idea!

Based on the many hours that I've spent on this, I'm as convinced of the inside job as anything else I think I "know."

It is very hard to "come out" on this subject.  People with whom I share confidence, in and out of family, far left, liberal, moderate, and frankly unknown politically, have a VERY hard time digesting the idea.

Some of my most enlightened, liberal family/friends/acquaintences simply won't hear of it.  Others are ashen-faced shocked to imagine it.  Others have fairly knee-jerk reactions (" I don't believe in conspiracy theories" - and this from someone who physically can't stand to see a picture or tape of Bush or hear his voice).  Others have heard so little about it and are busy, so that they just surf to Snopes to see what that site has to say about it, and let it go at that.

I think that some contemplate the scary implications of it, almost like finding out that there is an alternate reality that they've entered unexpectedly, so now what do they do.  There is an individual (a friend from years ago with whom I've re-established contact) who is completely open to the idea, has done lots of reading, etc., but isn't quite ready to be as sure as I am.

Then comes the possibility that a new federal law targets people who get involved with 911-truth-type websites as somehow breaking the law because based on some really fuzzy definitions, defines such as advocating social, political or religious change by violent means.  I studied some history way back, as well as more recently, and stuff like this surely resembles past fascist regimes.  I'm now under no illusions that "it can't happen here," as I'm constantly reminded that so much HAS happened here (even aside from 9-11) that no sane person would have imagined in 2000 (remember when Y2K was the big deal?  I know a guy who sold his business then and took off for the desert because he was sure that a new armaggedon was nigh.  He said that several high-ranking military/Intelligence types had quietly retired and sold all their US assets, etc.).

It does bother me that there is animus among different folks who at base all dispite the official story.  May of them were once staunch allies; families have even been strained, sadly.  I don't know enough to choose among their respective versions; there seems to be some validity to each one.  The most important thing is to speak and act as if we're all on one side of the larger issue, it seems to me.  What we all want is a legitimate investigation.

It's probably true that there are (a) racists, (b) right-wing plants, (c) profiteers and who knows what else for which we must all be careful.  Further, 9-11 does overlap with some other issues such as Israel, prior administrations (encluding Democratic), etc.  Bickering does not resolve these issues, only dedicated study, logic and, as the author says, courage.

We live in unprecedented times; there is no easy roadmap for us.

by JimZ (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 53 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 1:25:21 PM

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and i apologize for my slightly snotty reply above- your humility is admirable. 

The American Revolution only had 45% popular support- the Tories were down to 15-20%- that leaves 35-40% that didn't support either or didn't want to get involved. Our task is simpler; we are not trying to overthrow the govt, we're working to expose and undo the coup that has taken place. 

Not everyone will be an activist, not everyone is "supposed" to, or needs to, to cause a full criminal investigation or Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I see this "Truth Movement" as a natural human response to paradigm shifting information.

If economic and political conditions worsen, or simply don't improve, more and more people are going to embrace real alternatives to the Republocrats and Corporate MSM, who will eventually collapse under the weight of their own corruption and illegitimacy, just as the USSR and many other dictatorships have. Out of the ashes, a more open and just system will be created. Far too many people's minds have already been expanded.

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1112 comments [57 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:25:57 PM

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somehow got on the wrong thread

by Better World Order (4 articles, 568 quicklinks, 39 diaries, 1112 comments [57 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:26:52 PM

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I appreciate and accept the apology. I hope the field of ash we rise from is minimal. May it not take much longer to get to the Truth.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 5:19:22 PM

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Movements build whether they are "organized" or not.  Truth motivates masses of people.  Everyone should just pitch in wherever they can!

Check out these two profoundly moving videos.  It'll do you good:

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:02:56 PM

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does anything you keep posting relate to what I said?

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:08:58 PM

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Americans Demand for a New Independent 9/11 Investigation Grows:  The Eleventh Day of Every Month:

The Third Stagehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q9nRs8cu5Y   

Europeans March in Mass for New Independent 9/11 Investigationhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaixrURYk7s

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:26:33 PM

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Okies Bill. I am really laughing now because if you actually knew me as Gage and others do, you would know I am everybody's cheerleader, always motivating people. The OP was meant to empower, and for whatever reason, you have single handedly turned it into some slam on activists, which it is not.

I restate that you have created an interpretation to what you *think* I said and are far from hitting the mark on what I really said.

Cary on. Keeping people hopeful and motivated is good. 

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:45:42 PM

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Let's all get out there and do what we can!!

It's been a long slug for many and a new awakening for others.  New blood and energy is coming in all the time.

Richard Gage is my hero.  I call him "Martin Luther King With a Slide Rule" :-)

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 3:54:32 PM

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Mr. Douglas:

I also enjoy listening to Richard Gage and his powerful presentation of the facts and the truth of what really happened on 911. He's a brilliant man.

An excellent way to help get the 911 truth out to America would be if Richard Gage and his colleagues were to some how get in touch with the producers of the Oprah Winfrey Show. Inform Ms. Winfrey that over 60% of America believes their Government was some how involved with what happened on that horrific day. Ms. Winfrey needs to see the facts of what happened on 911 and perhaps then would invite Mr. Gage on her show. Just imagine an entire hour of Richard Gage laying out the facts on Oprah? She has a huge audience. Talk about shock and awe! It'd certainly change many a peoples minds that is for DAM sure! The question is though, does Ms. Winfrey want to learn the truth? Ah! Perhaps like the many other credulous Americans in this country, she is too afraid and doesn't want to understand the truth? However, either way she should be informed.

Ignorance is indeed bliss.

by Munich (1 articles, 86 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 1125 comments [86 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 5:06:17 PM

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Contact Richard Gage at ae911truth.org with your suggestion.  You might contact Oprah's producer through her website and suggest it.

 If anyone doesn, I highly recommend being understated about feelings, and long on Richard and ae911truth's credentials, and as always being respectful, but I'm sure you all would be anyway.

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 5:38:51 PM

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The world is way out in front of America on this issue they have already assigned  blame .America still horrified of who  really did it can not confront their deepest thoughts on the issue.The greatest minds in America  know who and why it was done but  for the rest of America it is too horrific to contemplate.In these modern times the truth is like a slap in the face.

Much better to believe in a lie than to confront your nightmares.When you have a bit of circumstantial evidence it doesn't amount to much  but when there is a mountains of it ,well thats a different matter.

Ask the dancing Israelis with  the vans of bomb making equipment they know ,heck everyone knows except those Americans too frightened to face their own nightmares

by dave stanley (5 articles, 1 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 286 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 6:49:08 PM

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People need to be approached on their own level of consumption in order to begin to digest the full gravity.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 4:28:04 AM

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I think it's people like Bill Douglas, a self proclaimed "founder of the Truth Movement", which actually gives the "Truth Movement" a bad name and makes nore people disinterested from getting involved. Sounds like Al Gore claiming to have invented the Internet. You have a decent article about the current situation in the 911 "Truth Movement" posted here, and then a person like Douglas feels the need to come in, claim it all as incorrect, and leave links to controlled opposition (CNN/AOL endorsed) front groups like "We Are Change" who wouldn't be doing anything if they couldn't post their "activism" on Youtube 5 minutes after yelling at people on the street with a megaphone (via Alex Jones worship).

We Are Change, connected to shill-o-matic ego fiends like "Father of the Truth Movement" Alex Jones, and which didn't even make its way on the scene until early 2007. Yes, We Are Change are supposedly the trail blazers, despite the fact that they didn't do anything for 6 years, before setting themselves up to be Internet celebrities and conspiracy gurus connected to controlled opposition, corporate interests.

For someone who declares themselves as a "founder of the Truth Movement", Mr. Douglass, I have to say I've never really heard of you, never read much about you, and don't know of anything you've ever done for this "movement" besides endless arguing and bickering with other shills. If you really understood what was happening, you'd realize that there isn't a "Truth Movement", and the majority of it has been infiltrated and controlled by corporate interests, virtually since day 1.

Myself? I've been involved in this "movement" since early 2003, starting a website, doing a net radio show, writing articles, and trying to get the word out on and off the Internet, freely spending my own money (funds which I don't have), and never asking for a SINGLE PENNY. Would I claim myself as a "founder" of the "Truth Movement"? No, no I wouldn't, because I'm not driven by my ego or money making pyramid schemes, games of popularity and Youtube views, constant back and forth bickering, but actual TRUTH. I know that endlessly shouting "Inside Job!" is a misnomer; just as big of a misnomer as even believing that there's a "Truth Movement" to begin with.

I see a trendy bandwagon, seeking to fleece the masses while presenting them with partial truths, misdirection and downright disinfo, more interested in being "conspiracy celebrities", selling DVD's and shirts, than actually doing anything productive for REAL truth. Sorry, but as a person who has been involved and active for the past 4 or 5 years, non-stop and daily, I take offense when I read an article like this, and a person like Douglas has to come in, hock off the websites he's involved with, and claim that everything stated in an article such as this one (which I found to be pretty truthful and unbiased, sincere), is totally incorrect because he's a "founder" and somehow has an opinion that means more than anyone else's opinion.

Why don't we get into LOOSE CHANGE, getting $25 million dollars from Texas billionaire Mark Cuban, associated with Alex Jones, Michael Moore, and other shills for the establishment status quo? I've basically watched as all of these people merely REPEAT information that had already been around for years, blatantly STEAL ideas, and claim themselves as the founders and originators (despite the fact that they've never had an original idea in their lives).

Please excuse my rant here, I just wanted to respond to this pompous reply to this article, which I have posted at my website as a means by which to get people to think about the current state of the "Truth Movement". I can hardly find a "Truther" out there who isn't trying to make a living off of exploiting one of the greatest tragedies in American history, and pretending that their conscience is clear and that they are doing it for the right reasons. I see a trend, a trend that is fast in dying because of corporate control at the top of this pyramid scheme.

Anyway, I'm all for 911 Truth, exposing government sponsored terrorism and the emerging police state, but these concepts are so narrow, so single minded, that it's only going to interest a very narrow and marginalized portion of the population. If the "Truth Movement" is to exist another year or two (if we even have that long) it desperately needs to expand its horizons and the subject matter which it covers. We need to deal with issues of enlightenment and empowerment, on a world history scale, our human origins, instead of just repeating the same tired "facts" over and over again, and creating 20 different slogans, bumper stickers and tee shirts for which we try to sell the "truth" off as a commodity.

Bill Douglas, who thinks that Charlie Sheen, Ed Asner and David Shayler are credible voices for truth. As far as I can tell, Douglas is part of the same COINTELPRO type movement (utilized throughout the 60's counterculture as a way to control and divert, divide and conquer) that endlessly has diversionary debate with the likes of Wing TV, Daryl Bradford Smith, Eric Hufschmid and a long list of other FAKERS who would have no popularity whatsoever if they weren't constantly bickering with each other and posting it on the Internet, just to stir up sensationalist publicity for themselves.

In close, there's really no such thing as a "Truth Movement". Be a movement in of yourself and don't count on any of these "founders" or "gurus" to present any actual truth for you. Hardly a one of them is to be trusted in the least. Trusting yourself is all you really need, and if you can't do that, don't expect a lot of these "Truthers" to provide any meaningful kind of answers for you.

They are more interested in self congratulation and patting themselves on the back before getting to any valuable messages of truth.

By the way, Ron Paul is a part of this whole fiasco. Never seen such a pyramid scheme at work in my whole life.

by Michael Dyer (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 8:45:12 PM

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I do actions with several groups including We Are Change LA. Do not assume that just because the *group* is new that the members are new to the Truth movement or activism in general....SOME of the ones I do actions with have been in this as long as I have. They are part of the fragmentation I opined on. Most belonged to other groups before they landed where they are. That seems to be standard these days and now here we are with countless groups that can barely make a ripple on their own, when combined, we could cause a tsunami.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 4:41:41 AM

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And I have to say, while I've visited this website hundreds of times over the years, though never posted here before, it's extremely disappointing that the word Z-I-O-N-I-S-M is somehow offensive and not allowed to even be posted within the comments section? The reason we're not getting to any real truths is because the "movement" wishes to blame it all on Bush/Cheney, or Bohemian Grove, or Bilderberg, and refuses to see larger world forces at work behind such terrorist events. Some of the greatest terrorists of all time have been Z-I-O-N-I-S-T-S, this is not "conspiracy" but undeniable FACT. People like Douglas would seem to be the type who cry antisemitism every time Z-I-O-N-I-S-M is even mentioned. Anyway, very disappointed with Opednews, that it would have such a censorship restriction upon a simple word such as this. See, there are reasons why the truth is never revealed, why this "movement" is on the decline, and we're constantly in a centripetal circle jerk leading nowhere.

by Michael Dyer (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 6 comments) on Thursday, Dec 20, 2007 at 8:54:51 PM

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For starters, it is of absolutely no use to criticize the work of 9/11 truth groups.

The way to expand the movement is to move as much information as possible, as fast as possible.  Corporate media has betrayed us, so we must become the media.

Where do you get your information to disseminate?  Wherever you find credible information that you support.

For me:

http://.www.ae911Truth.org (Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth)
http://stj911.org/ (Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice)
http://www.PatriotsQuestion911.org (Military and Intelligence Experts Demanding a New 9/11 Investigation)

are gold mines of information that you can use to approach virtually anyone or any group with.

The above posters who are obsessed with trashing other activists, are wasting precious time.  In each of my posts, I try to provide useful information to empower us all to get the truth out wider and wider.

Use the above sites, or find others you trust, and then spread that information as wide, fast, and far as you can.  Send it to every media, every group, every official, engineer, fire union, whatever you can think of to spread this information.

Or you can write long litanies of character assasination against other activists doing good hard solid work out there.

http://.www.ae911Truth.org (Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth)
http://stj911.org/ (Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice)
http://www.PatriotsQuestion911.org (Military and Intelligence Experts Demanding a New 9/11 Investigation)

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 1:17:28 AM

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No one is criticizing the work of any Truther.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 4:24:48 AM

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 The below videos are inspirational, because they show what people can do when they work together, and put aside differences.  The below are powerful examples of a vibrant 9/11 truth movement.  Become a part  of history.  Share the below videos with everyone you can, every blog you can!!

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 1:21:45 AM

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Stay on topic? What is so threatening about my OP that you can't seem to walk away from it?

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 4:29:54 AM

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Look, nothings perfect. Every movement I've been involved with or witnessed has had it's "ego" problems. Get over it.

Personally, I have gotten to the point I dislike joining anything. So I do my own thing. I make my own signs and place them on my truck along with the fifteen-odd bumper-stickers and mention 9/11 so much that my friends roll their eyes. But my favorite thing to do is mail DVD's like Press for Truth, or Terrorstorm from different cities, never the one you live in, to people I think need to know the most. Always anonymously, then talk to them later on and maybe draw them into mentioning it. Basically have fun with the rage.

I've collected a fair size library of 9/11 DVD's and have screenings and I'll some be using a friends huge first floor of his building to do free screenings. Basically, once you know the truth of 9/11 it does become an obsession for good reason. I can't afford to keep buying new TV's because every time I hear one of these bastards start using 9/11 as their mantra for whatever repressive doctrine they're imposing upon us now I throw something at it!  

by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [654 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 3:09:30 AM

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Unlikely. There are enough distractors and disinformationists in the mix harming us without Truthers themselves damaging the momentum by way of ignorance, greed, thoughtlessness or simply having a big head.

Real Truthers with these issues need to straighten up and fly right. Every time they are caught, the bad mouthing by the one that caught them is way more damaging then Fetzer and Jones fighting over theories. Fetzer and Jones aren't *in the streets* with us one on one with the people, but the others are.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 4:37:21 AM

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If all those seeking 9/11 truth did what this person does, find their own best ways to get info out, the movement grows.

If we follow the path of arguing with each other, and trying to convince each other how screwed up everyone else in the movement is.  We get nowhere.

I urge all to follow this posters example, and get info out!!

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 11:47:16 AM

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Mothersson

This was one of the last posts on Mr. Hirschorn's "9/11 Truth Manifesto" which recently garnered 40 + comments.  I felt it deserved a wider audience and contemplation.  I hope the author does not mind. 911 as a Truth process First step in our awakening process is to start at Unanswered Questions, then wse usually move to Cover-up because of Innocent Failings; if we keep going then third stage is LIHOP on a Pearl Harbour analogy; Fourth stage is MIHOP - made it happen on purpose, but still with two mistaken assumptions, both still unfortunately present in Joels' manifesto (and by the way I really like Joel's proposal for the 911 truth movement, whatever our differences, to pro-actively dictate what kind of inquiry/ies we insist on, with what procedures and scope and deadlines). MIHOP first stage still swallows the hijacker demonology. But it is racism pure and simple to believe the worst about 'outgroup' people without any proof, or on the sayso of proven racist liars. There is NO evidence except from world-champion liars who brought us Saddams' WMD etc, etc, of any Arabs going through the two airports that day (same as at Madrid, London on July 7, 2005 and no cameras working as Diana drove to her death ....); No passenger-manifest names of Arabs. Some of the 19 names still alive. No physical possibility at that height and speed for any mobile phone calls about Muslim fanatics taking over planes; Hani Hanjour couldn't fly a puddle-jumper; and though there is plenty of evidence for (US military-trained, drug-runner) Attah and co being noisily around flight schools, vegas, strip clubs, etc there is NO evidence that they were hijacking anything that morning, least of all that they were ever devout Muslims. Just patsies positioned to turn American shock and grief into hatred of the folk with the oil who don't much believe in consumer capitalism and debt-money .... So once we drop the racist fairy story or 'meme' which the CIA etc had been predisposing people to believe at the drop of a hat for years, e.g. FBI gave the explosives for the 1993 WTC bomb explosion, we should also rename the Attack on America (including Pentagon building) as the Manhattan Murders of Sept 11th, requiring good domestic police work , not international military action, to respond to. MIHOP second stage (No Hijackers) moves through to MIHOP third stage, or MIHOP DEW or Directed Energy Weapons, when we revisit the evidence of WHAT happened, which we need to look closely at before we can work out how it was done, who did it, and why. Once we do this then the thing which really strikes one is that WTC7 is like a classic controlled demolition (may not be) insofar as there is a huge pile of concrete and steel at the bottom, 47 floors pancaked into a 7-stories high pile (at freefall speed, perfectly dead-centred symmetrical, steel-framed buildings always withstand fires, as Building 6 did with MUCH bigger fires and sideways debris, which was between WTC1 and WTC7). Hard as it may be to believe the twin towers were also destroyed at the equivalent speed of a falling object, but actually they fell upwards, through the top open fountain, into big mushroom clouds and only descending some time later as very fine dust. And even if you disagree with this interpretation of the extraordinary photo-graphic evidence of the dustification of the buildings, the clincher is surely Prof Judy Woods question: well, where did the buildings go? Cos there just arent two big piles of (say) 110 into 16 stories height, barely even one story height - at the base of where the twin towers used to stand. Remember the iconic image of the high outward-leaning spandrels - they stand proud at the base, from day one, albeit many people (I did too for years!) have bought cover stories such as the steel all being shipped off to China real quick to prevent it being examined. And much of the merchandise in the shopping mall below WTC2 (South tower) was still resaleable, albeit only one floor below ground level, ground on which 110 stories of concrete and steel is supposed to have fallen. At this point many 'truthers' get nervous and some turn abusive - and it particularly distressed me when they assassinate the character of Prof Judy Wood as she has twice had close colleagues slaughtered in recent months - surely to warn her I believe. So often have we been hurt by being abused as crazy conspiracy nuts, that unconsiously we tend to do exactly the same to researchers who spoil the official party line of controlled demolition using thermite which Prof Steven Jones (with very disturbing Los Alamos fusion research etc connections) - and Alex Jones \nd Richard Gage of Architects and Engineers for 911 truth have helped to popularise, largely based on the ?'psyop' of molten metal in the rubble which is supposed to have come from thermate steel cutters [could be true for bottom ten floors?] and stayed hot for 100 days and never gave off any flash steam explosions, no matter that the site was hosed for 100 days ... (hmmm). Anyway for those still wanting to keep sussing out the truth, and not settle for cutting a party-line partial cover-up deal, the next stage is one which gets the mainstream 'truthers' even more nervous - namely to go from No Hijackers, and MIHOP-DEW to MIHOP-NPT, No Planes Theory, or No Passenger Planes or Big Boeings at all. Not just at Shanksville and Pentagon, but even at Manhattan!!!??. Now this seems wild to people, who can get very contemptuous because so many people think they saw it with our own eyes, or believe, because we have been told, that hundreds of people saw them smash into those buildings. (Remember that the box in the corner was part of people's 'Critical Parent' as we pre-schoolers grew up in the West, so it is unconsciously like Big Brother, who must not be questioned, else what is left that we can hang on to? But keep breathing and keep investigating with an open mind and good will, the Buddha advises us, being neither swayed towards or against anything before we have examined it ourselves, and without being swayed by 'what everyone thinks'.) Suppose it is logically impossible for Big Boeings to smash up with not any parts ever found, not even huge engines, and for the soft aluminium to cut through steel frames like butter through a knife ?!?? and for this invincible plane to then next millisecond become so vulnerable that it shreds and burns to nothing left because of the super-intense friction and aircraft fuel blaze (so we are told) , but then what is that we see but secretaries looking out of the holes, and unsinged books on filing cabinets beside them ..... That is the Morgan Reynolds line, more or less, who didn't invent it, but he is a significant player because he is determined as hell, has launched a court action and he has good creditability with the Right. So then we have to ask what about the media eyewitnesses on the day/media? - (maybe pre-planted CIA actors, a common thing at False-flag terrorism events) - and what about the holes in the buildings? (either bombs along the frontages or missiles) - and what about the Manhattan eyewitness? (well there were planes around but the number of people who say they both saw and heard planes hitting the towers is less than those who didn't, who reported bombs, or flare up fires with no sound efffects, etc). Next stage is video-fakery - and there are probably whole offices in Foggy Bottom dedicated to dissing this Woods-Reynolds-VideoFakery line - for that check out September Clues, especially the Fox news 'live feed' of the plane hitting the South tower and coming out the other side with (seemingly) little damaged nosecone. Actually although I am very persuaded by the Woods and Reynolds work, and it does necessarily dictate that the 'live TV footage' of that day must logically be faked, we should be rather cautious of any particular video-fakery evidence, as it is very technical, and it could be that the Powers That Be could be pulling a JFK/Garrison on us, with fake evidence about a real fake, so that when the fake evidence is discredited, then they hope to get us all to go back to sleep again - or at least accept a version of what happened which doesn't have such tremendous implications. (But also remember that video-fakery in the shape of the Zapruder hoax was used to contain the remains of the JFK turth movement in the seventies.) By 'tremendous implications'  I mean a) the issue of super-controlled media conspiracy with co-ordinated 'real time' forgeries (like also they steamrollered the evidence of multiple explosions out of the way at Oklahoma); b) the notion of super-secret 'black' DEW or laser technology (also used in Iraq by the way) which can vanish stuff into dust (mocked by Jones et al as Space Beams, but no need to assume it comes from Space) - and conversely the excellent news of alternative massive free energy physics which could be used to get us out of the clutches of Big Oil and the Planet Jonestown they insist we don't leave. Except 'They' screwed up on 9/11 bigtime. The triple towers are iconic for us now! I completely agree with Joel that, together with election theft in the last 8 years (at least), 9/11 can become a huge catlyst for r/evolutionary awakening by the citizens rising free... But for that we citizens have got to learn to discuss with each other calmly - no matter how passionately we feel - , using nonviolent communication (NVC) and according to reason and evidence, and not be swayed by emotive shills, wild defense mechanisms of those good folk still in denial or in thrall to rigid ideological a prioris, etc. May all beings be happy ... and seasonal Good will to all (but no naivety, please).   by Greenham (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 comments) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 7:33:46 PM

by boomerang (0 articles, 7 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 557 comments [215 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 7:32:45 AM

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This was one of the last posts on George Washington's "The 9/11 War Games" which recently garnered three (3) comments.  I felt it deserved a wider audience and contemplation.  I know the author does not mind.  

Disturbed Kittens? That's new to me.

I'll say it again (one more time). Yes, I have been to almost all the sites that GW referenced - and many more that he didn't. I've also looked at sites that counter the assertions in GW's links. I even (get this) reviewed a number of the actual source documents on which both pro and con conspiracy base their assertions. Lastly, I approached the available data, which I'll admit is considerable, using the scientific method.

And... through a diligent application of Occam's Razor, I found that the most reasonable and likely theory that better explains the available data is largely that uncovered in the 9/11 Commission Report and NIST report on the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 (as well as the status report and presentation issued on WTC 7).

The multiple theories offered by those within the so-called Truth Movement may be possible but have a very low probability of actually having happened. Given the necessity that these theories rely on so many apparent and independent variables (both inside and outside the government) working as one, cohesive unit toward a common goal of creating a new "Pearl Harbor-like" event (which is a widely misinterpreted statement in and of itself) has a decidedly low probability.

Is it possible that all of the oxygen atoms that occupy the volume within the room that I'm sitting will concentrate in a stratified layer near the ceiling without any deliberate action? Yes, it's possible given the application of the Theory of Relativity and application of quantum mechanics. But (and more importantly) is it probable? Not in my lifetime.

And yet with the events of 9/11, those results did happen - so they were both possible and probable (to a high degree even). Therefore, what theory explains the available data in a reasonable and most likely setting? I'll leave this open because you're either open to an honest review of the data or you're not.

The logistical question is immaterial in that both obviously had the means. The better question is who has actually applied their logistical capabilities to commit similar acts? Do I have to list the USS Cole, African embassies, WTC 1993, Somalia, etc...? I think you get my point.

What I liken the Truth Movement to was/is the never ending quest for WMDs in Iraq. There is no "smoking gun" for 911Truthers to which they can point and say, "See!" just like there were/are no WMDs found in Iraq - except for a few older mustard gas artillery shells. So, you can pile on as much circumstantial evidence that you want, twist it crazy like a pretzel too, but in the end - that dog won't hunt.

And this is why the great majority of Americans don't (1) accept the theories presented by the Truth Movement and (2) don't feel compelled to waste additional taxpayers' money chasing down the patently absurd claims of some 911Truthers (e.g., death beams from outer space that result in a totally new - yet unproven - physical process termed "dustification").

What the people do believe (and is so often reflected in the quoting of 911Truthers via a twisting of poll results) is that the Administrations (Bush and Clinton) weren't being entirely honest with their testimonies but not because they were "Letting It Happen On Purpose" or "Making It Happen On Purpose". Rather, it was because they were covering their asses in light of the severe incompetence that culminated in the events of 9/11. A small minority of people (for that is what 911Truthers represent – a small minority) elected to take this incompetence and then grant the same Administrations (which they criticized daily for neglect and incompetence) the ability to pull off the largest conspiracy probably known to humanity. On its surface, this is what seems unbelievable.

I'll refrain from responding to GW's continued posting of the multiple layers of 9/11 – unless there's something new presented. But the continued posting of the same assertions is reflective of a preacher serving a homily to his congregation because the "actual" application of the scientific method has already disproved much of what GW posts – again and again and again. But GW can't look at those results because he'd loose the respect and admiration of the congregation. Oh well...

by Tom Murphy (3 articles, 5 quicklinks, 16 diaries, 2103 comments [55 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 8:36:29 AM

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Make the charges. Tell what you think you know. Don't manipulate or lie.  Make a real effort to be honest.  Validation is more important than conversion.

by John Hanks (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1762 comments [39 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 1:07:24 PM

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YAY! You!

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 1:43:32 PM

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Is it possible that all of the oxygen atoms that occupy the volume within the room that I'm sitting will concentrate in a stratified layer near the ceiling without any deliberate action? Yes, it's possible given the application of the Theory of Relativity and application of quantum mechanics. But (and more importantly) is it probable? Not in my lifetime.

The reason why the great majority of Americans don't accept the theories presented by the 9/11 truth movement may have more to do with scientific illiteracy such as you exhibit here. The hypothetical occurance you describe has nothing to do with relativity and little with quantum mechanics, only plain old Newtonian mechanics. The man I took my handle from showed that such violations of the second law of thermodynamics don't violate classical mechanics--the point being that thermodynamics is fundamentally a statistical theory. Historically, that was the point of making up such absurd scenarios.

There is no "smoking gun" for 911Truthers to which they can point and say, "See!" just like there were/are no WMDs found in Iraq - except for a few older mustard gas artillery shells.

Terrible analogy! The smoking gun is literally the smoking buildings! No one with any common sense can really believe that a steel frame would collapse suddenly and symmetrically just because it reached some magic temperature at which materials handbooks say it looses 50% of its strength. The professional scientists and engineers who say it would are too afraid for their professional standing or tenure to stand up and say the emperor has no clothes. Invoking "Occom's Razor" is a joke. There is simply no plausible explanation that doesn't involve explosives, and jet fuel doesn't qualify under any conceivable conditions. It may not be quite as improbable as the air molecule behavior you describe--after all, that's the random behavior of a huge number of things--but certainly very, very unlikely. You have to believe the steel suddenly reached the magic temperature all at once and turned into rubble instantly, else how to explain the near-freefall acceleration?

None of this even remotely proves or disproves G.W. Bush or Dick Cheney were personally involved (or Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc.;etc.) Only that a reinvestigation is sorely needed.

p.s. I first learned of the 9/11 truth movement from an email sent to my university physics department by Bill Douglas, whom I thank.  I had earlier read a book by (French journalist, can't think of the name) that left me unimpressed.  It's the science that did it for me. 

by Maxwell (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 409 comments [85 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 2:28:14 PM

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<<p.s. I first learned of the 9/11 truth movement from an email sent to my university physics department by Bill Douglas, whom I thank.  I had earlier read a book by (French journalist, can't think of the name) that left me unimpressed.  It's the science that did it for me. 

by maxwell >>

 When the 9/11 truth movement first began its rumbles with Mike Ruppert's brilliant research . . . suddenly everytime you posted info that called the official story into question . . .

You would be hit with a million attacks on "strategy" and "motivations" and on and on.

So, I didn't spend much time with those endless discussions.  I amassed the coldest hardest facts I could find and sent them out to anyone I could find an email address for.

When Steven Jones's finding of "thermate" in the WTC debris came out, I spent weeks amassing email addresses for every physics and engineering department, professor, assistant professor, professor emeritus, and graduate student I could find.

Then I spent weeks emailing all  of them with professor Jones's research, and did the same when AE911Truth.org appeared.

I had no idea it was having an impact at the time, but knew that it was much preferable to spending endless hours arguing "strategy" and "motivations" and on and on, with those like on this group (some on this list).

FOLKS,  get your best facts in order, and behave like a cyberspace Paul Revere . . . getting facts out out out.

You don't have to be responsible for what people choose to do with those facts.  The media has betrayed us, we must become the media.

You can reach millions by writing succinct cogent compilations of irrefutable facts and research that show the official 9/11 story is a myth, and that a new investigation is necessary to the survival of our democracy.

Don't wait for a "perfect movement" to do it.  Become a Paul Revere of 9/11 truth !!!

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 2:45:14 PM

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so WTF do you think many of us have been doing for the past 6 years ?

You're right of course, but the dialog IS IMPORTANT ! 

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 3:00:27 PM

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Who are you talking to?

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 2:51:32 PM

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   Ms. Roberts, will you PLEASE stop interpreting every post by Bill Douglas on how to promote 9/11 truth as a response to you!!!!   He merely made some constructive suggestions about the tactics most likely to produce the results we want.

Robert Halfhill    rhalfhill@juno.com

by rhalfhill (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 327 comments [2 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 11:07:29 PM

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"The hypothetical occurance [sic] you describe has nothing to do with relativity and little with quantum mechanics, only plain old Newtonian mechanics."

Have you ever reviewed the quantum theory of monatomic gases, as postulated by Albert Einstein? And then couple this with the special theory of relativity and its effect upon the 3rd Dimension represented as volume via a gas? Are you familiar with the Lorentz Transformations?

click here and http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/EINSTEIN/Chapter7.html .

It's somewhat ironic in that most 911Truthers make the same claim about the collapses of the towers – "it's simple Newtonian physics". And yet they completely choose to ignore the Laws of Thermodynamics and its application to the collapses.

"The reason why the great majority of Americans don't accept the theories presented by the 9/11 truth movement may have more to do with scientific illiteracy such as you exhibit here."

Right. Well, obviously your living in the capital city of a major blue state has granted you a similar ability to exhibit scientific illiteracy here. You do know that the scientific method mandates the review of ALL available data and not just the data you want to review?

"The professional scientists and engineers who say it would are too afraid for their professional standing or tenure to stand up and say the emperor has no clothes."

Let's see who's going along with the "lie" because they're afraid of they're professional standing or tenure:

Here;
Here; and
Here

"Invoking "Occom's Razor" is a joke. There is simply no plausible explanation that doesn't involve explosives, and jet fuel doesn't qualify under any conceivable conditions."

As I requested of GW recently (who has yet to get back to me but, no doubt, is working on the request), could you please provide me (a) link(s) to where qualified professionals have passed peer-reviewed papers in to a respected scientific journal saying the collapse of the towers was impossible – without the use of explosives?

I'd be very interested in reading such (a) paper(s). And I let you in on a secret. The primary reason that I'm interested is that there isn't a single such paper in existence; I wish you well.

by Tom Murphy (3 articles, 5 quicklinks, 16 diaries, 2103 comments [55 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 11:24:00 PM

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"Do I have to list the USS Cole, African embassies, WTC 1993, Somalia, etc...?"

Yes, Tom, you've listed them. Please elaborate on these. 

by Tony Forest (7 articles, 18 quicklinks, 166 diaries, 1429 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 2:57:36 PM

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Does anyone in the 9-11 Truth movement understand the size of the gorilla involved here? Does anyone understand the bigger picture - the one where if 9-11 Truth or any one of the other forbidden truths were to be disclosed, that it would signal not only the end of the elite's control game, but of the US as we know it?

Does anyone understand that grassroots efforts, as nobel and well-meaning as they are, have no chance of disclosing the truth on a scale to affect a paradigm shift in consciousness, which is what 9-11 Truth is about.

9-11 truth as universal truth will not happen by osmossis, nor by thousands of people having a lightbulb go off in their heads, and then taking to the streets with torches and pitchforks. If you can't imagine how it will happen, then you are waging a battle in the dark.

Truths of this magnitude, like the revelation the world was round, or that it rotated around the sun, happen very infrequently, and then only through violent means in overthrowing the keepers of the status quo.

by Bill Cain (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 435 comments [67 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 9:19:56 PM

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Actually Great Movements Are People to People Thru Osmossis events.

 Read a book called "The Tipping Point."

An undercurrent of what people do, say, and think builds the way that water prepares to boil.  It is all below the surface and invisible.

Then at some point the bubbling begins.

Given the corporate media black out and also attacks on 9/11 truth seekers, the fact that so many tens of millions of Americans now know 9/11 was an inside job, and an overwhelming majority now  know there is a cover up of some kind going on . . .

Is a profound success by all involved in speading the truth of 9/11.

Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth, Steven Jones, PatriotsQuestion911.org, and others have provided profoundly powerful tools.

Individuals can take that work and run through the streets and cyberspace with it, and wake up millions more.

Of course 911Truth and others are lobbying Congress and others are lobbying media.  All important efforts as well.

But, the media and the government will have increasing pressure on them from the sheer force of millions and millions more every year being woken up by indivduals acting as cyberspace or street action Paul Reveres.

There's a million different ways to get the word out.  Be imaginative, and do what you can, and don't waste time trying to condemn how other groups are doing it, is all I'm saying.

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Friday, Dec 21, 2007 at 10:14:22 PM

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Bill, nothing is going to change until someone figures out how to have some high profile figure state unequivacably on live TV that 9-11 was an inside job, and thereby start a firestorm of controversy that the mainstream media can't ignore.

I've been down this path before with another forbidden truth, and believe me, grassroots efforts are not enough. There has to be a spark ignited by someone in a high position of authority who casts all caution to the wind.

by Bill Cain (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 435 comments [67 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 7:58:35 PM

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for that very thing to happen.  It's a project I am working on.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 10:08:08 PM

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I hope your way works. Let me know when you expect it to take place, as I'd like to liquidate my financial assets beforehand, as they probably won't be worth much when the stock market most likely will crash.

by Bill Cain (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 435 comments [67 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 9:53:56 PM

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I think it can/will work...it's getting to that point that is difficult.

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 10:05:18 PM

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You know, this is exactly what I have been saying to the various 9-11 Truth activists with whom I've been in contact - that someone in a position of authority HAS to pierce the mainstream media, and force this issue into a national dialogue which can not be ignored. No one to this point has wanted to listen. They all think that more videos, more pamphlets, more conferences, more web sites and more protests are the answer. I'd be interested in further details, but obviously you can't give it away. I hope you're on to something because I see no other way.

by Bill Cain (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 435 comments [67 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 24, 2007 at 10:03:48 PM

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We armor celebrities to come out, by expanding the grassroots awareness.  Unless WE have ties to Hollywood or Washington and can talk someone into coming out at those levels . . . our only alternative is to sit on our hands and "wish" someone important would do something.

Most of us don't have such connections.  If you do, go for it.

For the rest of us, what we CAN do is to contact as many people as we can with 9/11 truth facts.

The more people we educate the safer it is for high level people to do their part and speak out.

Or we could just sit around and wait for someone "famous" to save us.

I say, everyone get started doing what you can in any way you can to get 9/11 truth facts out faster, wider, and farther.

ae911Truth.org

and

PatriotsQuestion911.org

have provided us all with powerful tools and info to spread out wise fast and far . . . by any means necessary !!

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 3:04:58 AM

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Some changes are going down in the world which deeply challenge the pampered elite. Their model, of mainstream narrative from the top down (it goes from them, to us) plus the idea of three men (one at ABC, one at CBS, one at NBC) who could call that tune authoritatively was developed during the rise of television. But, only about 20 years into the TV revolution, suddenly there came the personal computer. These days, the U.S. "national" TV networks are still few in number, and still under the control of giant corporations. But, there is an "information explosion" that has accompanied the rise of personal computing and the world wide web.

It is no longer true that three men are the bottleneck. It is no longer true that Jennings, Brokaw, and Rather can "contain" political information, heading it off at the pass.

I apologize for my roundabout post, but the Gorilla as mentioned above exists in a world wide intellectual environment. (I am a fan of Alvin Toffler, here using his style to think outside the box. But I mean to connect the dots and again consider the Gorilla soon.)

I have long thought that the world's first trillionaire is just as likely to be an eleven year old hacker in Bangladesh. There is nothing to stop a computer-savvy kid in the third world from inventing the next MySpace or Facebook. I myself became a 12 year old computer programmer, getting my first computer at Christmas in 1978. Others have written that there is something empowering, liberating, or democratizing about the microprocessor. Personal computing is personal. The computer responds to you. It doesn't ask what credentials or PhD degree you have. It doesn't care about your political party, your pedigree, wealth, or social standing. As a 12 year old, I could simply write code and get the machine to do whatever.

I've also gone on to develop software in corporate America. But the essence of its development remains coding. It's an experience that requires a person at a computer keyboard to type out lines of code. Corporate America can make things more complicated, and can apply teams of people to development. They do it every day. But, in theory the eleven year old hacker in Bangladesh can do the same thing. Heck, it can happen in practice as well. Suppose that I've been through software projects at General Electric and Citibank, with 40 or 80 developers on a team. Then I step away and quietly, alone, develop new code that does pretty much the same thing. Well, after separating, they are still the big boys, but you can get "Fortune 500" grade software that's just as good from myself as an individual developer.

I'm able to do it, and I don't feel much superior to the eleven year old hacker in Bangladesh. I started at age 12, and in the old days when "hacker" was a term with no criminal connotations, I was that.

Ultimately, technology is allowing many, many people to say, "I can do that too," or "we can do that too." A.Q. Khan and Pakistan looked at others' nuclear technology and said, "we can do that too." Now Pakistan is nuclear-armed.

The proliferation of technology is quite natural to the human species. You get the general idea, that a kid in Bangladesh could come out with a personal, deployable Fortune 500 Bank, or Fortune 500 Insurance Company. Download it for free, and then have your own multi-national conglomerate! --Or, the kid in Bangladesh could grow up to be an A.Q. Khan, a man who is able to put nuclear weapons into the hands of whomever he chooses.

The bottom line is that the USA is losing some of its specialness. The "barriers to entry" are down, and someday a REAL terrorist (perhaps the next generation's Bin Laden) could combine full capabilities with a terrorist ideology. Someday a Bin Laden type may REALLY show us his nukes. My line from above noted that they can say, "we can do that too."

Let's note that I am with the 9/11 truth movement in that I want the truth to come out. But even if bad guys are in the USG, that doesn't mean that there aren't more bad guys internationally.

In Bill Cain's "Size of the Gorilla" post, he alludes to 'the end...of the US as we know it.'" Meanwhile, in my preceding paragraphs, I'm suggesting that REAL terrorists "can do it too," and that nuclear blackmail is not out of the question. In the face of that blackmail, a US President may have to admit to somebody like Osama Bin Laden, "Okay.....Uncle.....You're big!!"

There are paradigms that have already been shifting due to the factors noted above (personal computing, www, information explosion). Thankfully, that much paradigm shift has occurred without a shot being fired. But, Bill Cain now has me speculating about "the end of the US as we know it." I think the key phrase is "as we know it." I don't think that we would really see the end of the US; but, life could change in ways that would be unrecognizable to an earlier generation of Americans. Cain refers to "the elite's control game," and I already find it laughable. Plenty of Americans got wise to the game of ABC, CBS, and NBC News, and they tuned out -- audiences for the major news shows plummeted. Plenty of Americans know that the elite bamboozle everybody. 60% of Americans don't vote, and I don't blame them for shrugging off the rigged system of the kleptocratic elite.

I'm not sure in which direction Bill Cain was really thinking, but I hope that we DON'T go in the direction of a violent upheaval or civil war. Logically, I can see why the elites deserve to have the rest of the country march on them with pitchforks. While THEY deserve Nuremberg trials, it's the populace which does not deserve disruption. In fact, the populace deserves to be better served by their authorities.

There is likely to be bifurcation of the national discourse. The elites will continue to run their part of it (e.g., NBC, the subsidiary of General Electric). But, there is discourse elsewhere, in other venues apart from NBC. It can become very advanced with modern technology. I've spent years helping the Chinese democracy movement, and by now they have their own print, radio, television, and movie studio. The 9/11 movement is moving in the same direction. There comes to be a bubble or a sphere of influence. For the Chinese democracy movement, they mostly care to reach other Chinese. Their TV network goes about its business and runs many stories of persecution, and things of an anti-communist slant, and the same news makes no ripple in U.S. MSM.

It's a bifurcation of the political discourse. In one place, it is true that the Chinese regime is systematically selling the internal organs of Falun Gong practitioners -- whom they kill "just in time" to make a profitable sale of an organ transplant. It's an atrocious crime against humanity. But in the other place, US MSM, it is taken to be either not credible, or else it is credible but it's just business as usual. Still, they go about their business. The NBC network continues to function, but so too does the NTD (New Tang Dynasty) TV network of the movement.

Every day in every way, MSM is snubbing NTDTV just as surely as it is snubbing the 9/11 movement. But, out of adversity, new media has arisen. The Chinese democracy movement is its own community with its own polity. There is a totem pole of Chinese dissidents, and established analysts. The Vice President of Taiwan denounced the organ harvesting. It's big news at NTDTV, and it's non-news at NBC. But, what's the strategy that should be used in response? Should Chinese march to Rockefeller Plaza and denounce NBC? (They've done it already!) Should we hope that NBC comes around? --Or, perhaps, the right answer is to simply build up NTD TV; broadcast louder and more widely. It already reaches millions, it could reach millions more.

Some would say, "don't wait for the mainstream media." Just build up your own broadcasting capacity. Would that be the end of the U.S.? Or just the end of the US "as we know it"? Shouldn't we expect MSM to keep their heads in the sand? They have careers of denial going. Why change? These issues are "off the reservation" to them. If they cared to be more than laughable, they would expand their reservation. But it is a half-measure if they do that. Because, to have a reservation at all is to be protecting somebody. A larger reservation would still logically exclude any new group with new information -- the next movement to come down the pike.

We need media with no reservation. Unafraid to follow the truth, no matter where it may lead.

And y'know what? With open publishing, blogs, and websites like this one, we may in fact already have the absence of a reservation. Some of us are already free of their games and bs. Maybe that's why they're laughable.

But even with all this having been said, I swear that it's still not the end of the US. I just promulgated some insights above, and the Republic did not collapse. The fight for justice must continue, but I feel that it will only arrive in partial fits and starts. There will ALWAYS be more justice to fight for. But now, Jennings and Brokaw and Rather are gone. So, we will never see them admit to "new truths." So, in what other ways can justice arrive? How do we reset the mainstream? Should we have Nuremberg trials for a generation of U.S. journalists?

by John Kusumi (54 articles, 0 quicklinks, 32 diaries, 108 comments [8 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 1:26:52 AM

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My eyes were opened about 2 years ago; after viewing @America Freedom to Fascism" by the late Aaron Russo.  I have investigated this issue for months and I'm a member of Alex Jones's Prison Planet TV.com. I probabley would'nt have had the time if I was still working full time (like a lot of people do) however I cut my work hours as I started drawing Social Security. Now I display my 911 Was an Inside Job bumper sticker, wear the T-Shirts, write letters to politicians, union officials, the mass media...pleading to have a new 911 investigation. I belonged to a local 911 truth group locally, which dissolved after a few months, after the leader just quit suddenly. I'll never forget a call I received from the Obama campaign last summer asking for a donation. I told him I was totally supporting Ron Paul, and that Obama should initiate a new 911 investigation in the Senate; as I thought our Government was covering up the truth. His reply, "I know that Sir, but I don't want some guys in the Black Suits beating on my door some night". Have we as a free people gotten to the point where we have to be afraid to question our government?  People like Alex Jones, and the rest of the 911 truthers are standing up...it's time for all Americans to stand with them.

by ronheri (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 257 comments [47 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 9:41:15 PM

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Thank YOU!

by Cheri Roberts (16 articles, 15 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 435 comments) on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 at 10:03:23 PM

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All should follow this activists lead, and get 9/11 truth facts out wide, far and fast !!!

by Bill Douglas (69 articles, 2 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 434 comments) on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 at 3:07:46 AM

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