I know you're trying to be succinct, but...

You are correct, but your response to the statement "If we leave, they’ll follow us home" is very simplistic.  The Viet Cong didn't follow us home-- yes. Whether the Jihadists follow us home is a straw man argument.  It's not the point to be focusing on (and I agree that Bushies are the ones that keep making this claim, and that you are merely rebutting their mantra).

But the Jihadists are already among us. They are represented in various Middle Eastern Studies departments in US universities as well as groups like the Council on American Islamic relations.

They are looking for the next time to hit us in perhaps a more horrendous manner than they did on 9-11.

The distinct minority of Muslims who are radical--Salafists, Khumeinists, Muslim Brethren, etc.--are looking for ways to expand their power.  Since the 1920's, when the Ottoman Empire capitulated, they have been scheming to push  the borders of Islam to their 15th century limits and beyond.

America still is, and likely always will be, their primary target.

by Frank Staheli (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 34 comments) on Friday, May 4, 2007 at 11:07:24 AM
 

The Bush Administration should go....

to Iraq, that way we would be exporting terroism to the Islamic Fundermentalist!

Wake up, 911 was an inside job!!

Regards John 

by John Bursill (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Friday, May 4, 2007 at 4:54:26 PM
 

That's a myth

There is no group of islamic jihadis who want to wreak havoc upon 'the west' unless they are inspired by western secret services. Check this video to find out more: http://www.911pressfortruth.org/

The whole 911 thing is so obviously a false flag attack, even though it included patsies who were thinking they were helping in a drill. Yes there was a drill on 911 on the exact same moment of the real attack.

Really, as long as you keep trusting the mainstream media you'll come up with facts like the ones you stated. And yes, the conspiracy runs that deep.

by Han (0 articles, 2 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 204 comments) on Saturday, May 5, 2007 at 3:58:46 PM
 

The best exit strategy has been brought up by a republican..

And his name is Ron Paul.  The war was a violation of the Constitution from the outset, and therefore, all continuation of it is also a violation of the Constitution.

Although I hold the president responsible for this, I hold Congress much more responsible, because they waived their constitutional authority to declare war and passed it along to the excutive.  The Supreme Court has long-held that no branch of government can "transfer" its power to another branch.

Read Ron Paul's speech on leaving Iraq  here:

We Just Marched in, So we can Just March Out - click here

by Populist Party (6 articles, 2 quicklinks, 154 diaries, 32 comments) on Friday, May 4, 2007 at 12:43:53 PM
 

so it goes...

"American interests must be protected. If you’re talking about trading the lives of our youth for the continued flow of cheap oil, I say no dice. Anyway it’s high time we weaned ourselves from this greasy addiction."

Yeah -- I'm sure we've noticed how the price of oil and gasoline has been kept down since Bush invaded Iraq. Remember Clinton -- the guy who was president the last time gas sold for a dollar a gallon?

And to Mr. Frnak Staheli...

First, "jihad" is an oft misuded word; it really mean "struggle" referring to a spiritual struggle, generally having nothing to do with combat. Sure there are some crazies in the US, of every description, but not in the universities or Islamic Council that I've seen. America is a target of radical Islamists only so far as America is mucking around in the Middle East, as a struggle against imperialism, except for a very few crazies -- but we have Christian crazies here as well, and Jewish crazies, and whatever: that has nothing to do with invading Iraq except that any war tends to make them crazier.

It's not clear to me that they WERE the ones who hit us on 9/11, or if they did that it was not allowed or encouraged by some of the crazies in the US government -- that's far from a settled question.

Our actions in the Middle East are hardly stopping, but rather increasing Islamic radicalism, so points #3 and #5 are really the same thing.

As for a 'bloodbath', they said that about Vietnam and it didn't happen. It's the occupation and the 'divide and conquer' tactics of the US which is the major cause of sectarian violence, but the US is doing a great deal of the killing there -- either directly or US sponsored death squads (a Negroponte specialty). The longer we have stayed the worse the problem has gotten. (And isn't that a good excuse for staying there forever, building the permanent bases, and continuing to rape Iraq and at some point steal the oil, as laid out in the US-written oil law.)

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice -- three times -- four times -- five times... at some point people damned well better wake up to what's really going on!

by Blue Pilgrim (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 997 comments) on Friday, May 4, 2007 at 2:57:49 PM
 

Just came across this story

A good summary of some important facts about Iraq (and some other things too), from Uruknet.info

 The Anti-Empire Report
Some things you need to know before the world ends

by Blue Pilgrim (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 997 comments) on Friday, May 4, 2007 at 10:21:00 PM
 

Exactly What We Needed

Thanks, this is great - it's exactly what we need when responding to simple minded folk that base their beliefs on one minute right wing sound bites.

by RCG (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 348 comments) on Saturday, May 5, 2007 at 2:25:57 AM
 

Great list, but...

...you forgot one very important, and to me overriding fact about everyone of the listed talking points; the fuck heads that made those points and predictions have been wrong at EVERY TURN!

Oh yes, the same pugnacious prognosticators that gave us, "if we leave, they'll follow us home," are the same idiots that gave us, "we're fighting them there so we don't have to fight them here." In both cases, they are just wrong. Not unlike, "they'll greet us as liberators," "Mission accomplished," and "the insurgency is in its last throes," the people who make these predictions and work up these talking points have been proved wrong far too many times for anyone to lend anything but scorn and ridicule to any words they utter. How long will it be before We the People catch the clue bus, and know to a man that only someone devoid of intellect would listen to anything coming from the war pigs? While there may come that time when the consistently wrong mouthpiece of the right is actually correct in one of their talking points or predictions, (frankly, I have my doubts), up to now, they have been wrong to the tune of 3300 American lives, and goddess knows how many Iraqis.

Of course, that doesn't even cover the fact that the same people who have been wrong at every turn have also been hypocritical about one of their favorites, "support the troops." Yes, this "patriotic" cry has been used by the right and their minions to squelch debate on the Iraq War. If anyone dares to say anything against it, they aren't supporting the troops. If anyone dares to take any action against the Iraq War, those anyones are not supporting the troops. If anyone even dares to question the Iraq War in any way, they aren't supporting the troops.

Ok, so saying anything against the war isn't supporting the troops, but sending them to Iraq "on the cheap" without needed armor, etc. is supporting the troops. Taking action to end the war isn't supporting the troops, but paying the troops nothing for their sacrifice, and extending their tours of duty is. Questioning our reason(s) for being in Iraq isn't supporting the troops, but letting the troops get severely injured and then letting them stay in a rat and roach infested building overgrown with black mold is.

Once again, the words of these liars and charlatans carries more weight than the words of those who are working to end the debacle that is the Iraq War. How can anyone NOT see the logical disconnect here? It's as plain as day; as plain as the lies told to us by DUBYA and the rest of the War Pig Cheerleaders. Yet, for some reason, even though DUBYA's approval rating is so far down the toilet, people still buy into the bullshit. I just don't get that. Either the American people are even more stupid than the American president, or we are trying to delude ourselves that day is night and wrong is right. I simply don't get it!

Which brings me to my next comment.

But the Jihadists are already among us. They are represented in various Middle Eastern Studies departments in US universities as well as groups like the Council on American Islamic relations.

They are looking for the next time to hit us in perhaps a more horrendous manner than they did on 9-11.

While there is some truth in the above statements, it begs the question why. The Middle East has been an area of tumult and turmoil for almost two thousand years. We directly placed ourselves into this boiling tempest for the oil that exists under those desert sands. We, in our imperialist arrogance and cultural myopia, think that going over there and waving dollar bills under their noses is going to somehow make them stop fighting each other, and the rest of the world.

Can we really be that stupid? Apparently so. In being that stupid, we have become occupiers. In becoming occupiers, we have painted targets on ourselves and our country. In painting targets on ourselves and our country, we have guaranteed there will be more bloodshed on these shores.

If the "jihadists" are here, they are here because we provoked them. When one passes a buzzing hornet's nest, one can either walk by and leave it undisturbed, or one can pick up the nearest stick and give said nest a whack. It's a sure bet that the guy who walks by giving it a wide berth is going to run a much lower risk of dying from anaphylactic shock brought on by numerous stings than the moron who just can't wait to tempt fate.

In other words, this situation is of our own making. If we get hit again, and we will eventually, it's our own fault. We should have left well enough alone. Oil is not worth the global instability that is its handmaiden.

Maybe some day, the American people will REALLY wake the fuck up and rise up against the powers that are painting targets on ourselves and our country. Frankly, I don't see it happening. We are far too caught up in bravado, far too willing to believe utter bullshit, and far, far too willing to substitute empty platitudes for truth.

It really is sad.

Blessed be!
Pappy

by Pappy (61 articles, 0 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 860 comments) on Saturday, May 5, 2007 at 12:26:30 PM
 

they don't need to hit us again

(... assuming they actually did hit us 9/11 and it wasn't a false flag operation) then they (like Osama) have no need to do anything else to destory the US -- the US is doing it to itself. Bush is their greatest ally. Destroy the economy, the military, the Constitution, the US reputation, the work force, the infrastructure, education, health care, science, the political system, the press and media, Truth, Justice and the American Way --- damn: it would take all the armies in the world to to as much destruction as Bush has done and continuing to do.

by Blue Pilgrim (0 articles, 3 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 997 comments) on Saturday, May 5, 2007 at 12:51:34 PM
 

I think they'll play it like this:

This is not Vietnam, the interests are much much higher so they will be more persistent this time but also they are more patient, so here is how it will go.

Some democratic fall guy will become the next president, the troops will be withdrawn, the special forces and secret services will remain behind to make sure there will be a massive, predicted, carnage among the Iraqi civilian. And then the big bang, a massive false flag strike which will make 911 look like peanuts. After that they get cart blanche and will nuke Iran and will implement martial law and enforce RFID tags for everyone.

Doing politics is so easy if you have unlimited resources and no conscience bothering you.

by Han (0 articles, 2 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 204 comments) on Saturday, May 5, 2007 at 4:19:11 PM