The Employees of the Big three hold three different identities.  First, They are employees.  Second they are also the consumers.  Foreign companies don't have that problem.  If Kia wants to cut wages, no problem.  The people they employ nor any of the indirect consumers are buying their cars anyway.  When GM, Ford, or Chysler cut wages they are also cutting the capital of their consumers.  That is an unfair advantage.  The third station is that they ARE taxpayers.  If they loose their jobs they will no longer be paying taxes.  Last I checked, Koreans didn't receive a W-2.

     It is sad to have to see The big 3 beg for help from the very people that helped put them in that positions.  With the implementation of NAFTA and the WTO policies, the auto industry was placed at an unfair advantage.  Everybody claims that it was the Big 3's fault for producing SUVs.  Well I bought an escape hybrid.  I got $3000 for my effort on a tax break.  My uncle, a small business fairly successful plumber.  Because his new "business" Silverado was over 3 tons he was allowed to use the "rapid depreciation" clause to get a $60,000 vehicle for free.  He simply wrote the whole thing off on his taxes at the end of the year.  It was the legislators who helped to encourage this kind of behavior. 

by Dwight Black (16 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 50 comments [1 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 at 12:49:03 PM

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THE BIG THREE WERE SLEEPING WITH BIG OIL--THEY HAVE AND HAD THE TECHNOLIGY --THEY JUST SOLD OUT AND DESTROYED OUR PLANET WHEN THEY KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON--WE NEED THREE CAR COMPANIES LIKE WE NEED A HOLE IN OUR HEADS---LET THE SONS OF BITCHES FAIL THE HONEST WAY--THEN WE WILL HAVE A AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY THAT IS HONEST--IF THE WORLD IS STILL HERE--FOR A THOUSAND THINGS ARE COLAPSING--ARE WE TO BAIL ALL OR ONLY THE REALLY NEEDED ONES LIKE HOUSING MEDICAL AND FOOD--IN CASE YOU ALL DONT KNOW IT- THE WORLD DID CRASH ALREADY--ITS JUST THAT CRASHING WILL TAKE SOME TIME--AND NOT ANYTHING WILL STOP IT NOW --THE TIPPING POINT HAS --HAS--HAS BEEN PASSED--IN A YEAR YOU WILL ALL KNOW THIS--I JUST HOPE MOST OF YOU WILL BE HERE, BUT I KNOW IT WILL REALLY BE BAD---GO ORGANIZE YOURSELVES INTO GROUPS NOW--HOW MUCH MORE ARE YOU GOING TO READ BEFORE YOU USE THE IMFORMATION TO ACT????READING ABOUT IT AND WAITING FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO FIX THIS MESS IS EXACTLY WHY WE ARE HERE NOW--THE END OR START USING YOUR HEADS------PS---AND GET READY FOR THE BIG FLU--COMMING TO A WORLD NEAR YOU--DO YOU THINK FOR ONE MOMENT THE GOVERNMENTS DO NOT THIS IS THE ONLY NATIONAL SECURITY ANSWER TO THE BIG MESS????YOU ARE FOOLS TO NOT WATCH THIS HAPPEN IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES AND NOT STAND UP AND FIGHT--THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT DOSENT WORK -PROTECT YOUR SELF--CHOISE OF WEPONS ARE HIGH POWERD RIFLES IN ANY CALIBER ABOVE .22 --HAND GUNS ARE VALUABLE IN 45 0R 44 CALIBER--SOLID COPPER JACKETS ON THE LEAD WILL ENABLE YOU TO SHOOT THROUGH WALLS OR CARS-SHOT GUNS ARE A JOKE UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY CLOSE AND HOLD BUCKSHOT--AMMO DOES NOT LAST WHEN YOU ARE USING IT ALOT SO STOCK UP --KEEP IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS--FREINDS FAMILY SHOULD USE THE SAME CALIBERS OF GUNS SO AMMO IS UNERVISAL FOR HAVING A GUN WITH FEW BULLETS OF A OF THE WALL CALIBER IS STUPID----MILITARY AMMO AND GUNS ARE WORLD WIDE---3O-O6------.223--762X39---HAND GUNS --9MM --44  OR 45 CALIBERS ARE THE BEST----YA I KNOW YOU AL THINK THIS IS FUNNY-----BUT WE WILL SEE WHO LAUGHS LAST

by TRADESMAN (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 335 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 at 6:09:31 PM

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      You wrote, "In the years to come, we should really reflect on what got us in this mess and take steps to prevent it from ever threatening us again."

      Though you make many good points of the alternatives ahead to improve, I suggest now is the time, not in the years to come. The arguments, the bailouts and the insane rescue efforts to somehow save "our standard of living" is beyond the pale. We are a self centered greedy and money absorbed group of consumers that lead the world in self indugence. We have more mirrors than anyone and sadly, we refuse to look into them.

      Please. The big three are but another example of how full of ourselves we are. The bully (us) has been shown the door. The greediest are grabing what they have always valued, more of anything. And they will get it. Because we still believe we (America) are too big to fail. So, we will. We have seen the enemy...........

      Although they (the three) are failed already by definition, for sake of argument, I welcome the final failure of the big three. Billions will not save anything except the false image of who we are, and even more telling, after we see this money stolen and spent to pretty up the aging patient yet again, we will still be left in our own lil' world wondering why. Lookin' real good in the rear view.

     Welcome the lesson we are about to learn.

     peace

by mikel paul (14 articles, 1 quicklinks, 11 diaries, 570 comments [13 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 at 3:56:08 PM

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it is not our fault--we were led to believe in these things---lessons to learn are to fight again for our freedom--like our forfathers did

by TRADESMAN (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 12 diaries, 335 comments [40 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 at 7:58:45 AM

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I am not the one that has to make the decision. Our friend from Wisconsin, who seems quite proud of his family in the same village for 125 years, says "let the sobs fail". Quite cavalier in my opinion, when it could mean millions without jobs; people losing homes, lives wrecked. There is no doubt that the big 3 have more than enough blame to share but it is like people arguing over who caused a wreck when someone is bleeding to death in the street. These are dangerous times-----very dangerous times and we all better handle with care our personal affairs and hope that government can be made to work. There are no easy decisions here but to "hip shoot" and making snap judgements helps none of us. As I said in the heading, I am glad it does not fall on my shoulders.

by virginius "gin" arnold (18 articles, 7 quicklinks, 47 diaries, 516 comments [22 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 at 7:27:39 PM

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It falls on all our shoulders. What do you suggest we bail them out and keep making the SUV's for Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads? We should keep making these politically embarrassing vehicles that nobody except the rich want even though they keep us dependent on oil? Watching TV lately you wouldn't believe there's a financial meltdown in the auto business. Just as many ads for the big Silverado, etc.They asked for 35 billion and congress is gonna give them 15 billion. What are they supposed to do with that, if they need 35? All three companies are worth a total of 9 billion. The whole thing is so out of whack. One can't help from thinking that they're gonna take the money anyway, (who wouldn't?)even though it's not gonna be enough, ask for more the next quarter, and when they don't get it send everyone home for unemployment. CEO's get to keep their bonuses. In the meantime the Italians and the Autralians are going ahead with their air driven motors. We had the technology all along but it was shelved to give more profits to the oil industry. They took us for a ride and they want to get every last dime they can out of us. If it's gonna fail anyway, let it fail. Nothing gained by trying to prop it up. Let the chips fall where they will. It'll be a lesson learned for everyone. Maybe capitalism isn't so good after all. We need renewable energy and to slow down to zero growth if we want to leave our children anything. We need to slow down and learn to appreciate the finer things in life, our quality of life, not just the profit that can be squeezed out of the junk we are brainwashed to consume. The only ones who don't want to leave oil behind us are the ones still making money off of it, to the detriment of others and the planet. It's over. The sooner the better.

by Nick van Nes (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 596 comments [150 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 at 10:19:08 PM

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I think you and I are on different tracks. Yours seems to be an intellectual discussion of right and wrong, which is always a worthy topic, and a rant against those that you feel have stolen and defrauded the stockholders. Once again, a worthy topic, and a great moral goal to work towards. Unfortunately, I see no constructive ideas proposed that would see us out of our economic disaster we are now witnessing. Already admitted, I am not at all sure what needs to be done, but I see no solutions offered in your post. 

by virginius "gin" arnold (18 articles, 7 quicklinks, 47 diaries, 516 comments [22 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Saturday, Dec 6, 2008 at 10:37:14 PM

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Maybe you see no solutions because the are no solutions.

You don't take a dead relative to the hospital, you take them to the morgue.

It is hard truth---but some things have no solutions other than acceptance.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:14:31 AM

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is a short term solution to a long term problem.

I would prefer to see them enter bankruptcy, re-organize, and then help with funds if they keep their workers at work with no job, pay or benefit losses.

The espoused first line of defense-espoused by the Big Three that is-is to cut up to 20,000 jobs. Big help that. GM and Ford both have no interest in using US parts manufacturers for their supply lines. They wish to maintain their overseas sources. Not too good either.

There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of brand new vehicles being warehoused because dealers are not buying. And  dealers are not buying because the average Jane and Joe are not in a position to buy.

That issue alone makes this a long term  problem. I say bankruptcy and re-tooling to create greener vehicles. Perhaps a plan to retrofit some of the unsold newbies as well. That should keep workers on line and receiving pay.

I believe that all three, although I could be wrong about Chrysler, of the auto makers have significant investments and plants overseas. How do we know the bailout money would not go to those countries and plants? We have no oversight from Bush/Paulson to prevent shipping box loads of cash out of the country.

Handing them operating cash for  the short haul just does not make sense, when the economic conditions will last far longer. Let them use the bankruptcy laws.

by Jack Harrington (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 676 comments [70 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 at 2:06:44 PM

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  Don't be surprised at the CNN/Opinion Research result.  I'm not a professional here but I'm confident I could get about any results I wanted with the right spin on the questions.  I only checked one question but it was enough to show a biased view in line with the results.  This of course is the same CNN that said it wanted to be more like FOX just a few years ago.  Most of the Republicans seem hostile to the idea of saving our last major domestic manufacturing industry and their Unions, and the Republican friendly MSM seems to share these views along with our MSM influenced alternative media.  We seem to only be able to learn the hard way but that's only an option if you can survive, which economically is pretty doubtful at the present time.

by Richard Lee (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 181 comments [40 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Sunday, Dec 7, 2008 at 9:44:56 PM

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Ha...you say,"We seem to only be able to learn the hard way "...

It sure would be nice to think that were even the case.

America seems to do everything the hard way--and still learns nothing by it.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Monday, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:03:00 AM

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