by Munich (1 articles, 86 quicklinks, 14 diaries, 1125 comments [86 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:33:18 PM

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What?  No condemnation of the rockets being slung at Israel that precipitated this "slaughter"?  Hamas bears no responsibility at all for this war even though Israel has long since accepted the ceasefire agreements for a two-state solution? 

by CJ (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 2:58:28 PM

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to give you side by side comparisons, and let YOU decide if the shoe fits?

Feeling GUILTY much?

by David Hastings (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 116 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:26:17 PM

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I abhor the violence in Gaza, but the German Jews did not terrorize the Nazis and the scale of the violence in Gaza, while deplorable (one lost life is too many), cannot even be measured on the same scale as what the Nazis called "The final solution".   The comparison is invalid.  That you find some similarities speaks to the fact that there is some common ground between all wars and all violence.  But the differences matter too.  To ignore them is to ignore the truth.  To ignore the truth, is to lie.

by Mikhail Lyubansky (15 articles, 11 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:48:59 PM

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I invade your house, and steal your land, cut down your trees, then bulldoze the house and herd you in a shed out back. Then, when you fling a rock at me, I nuke the shed, and I am "terrorized?"

Please. A very Rovian-type argument easily dismissed.

by David Hastings (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 116 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:37:08 PM

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I'm sympathetic to the Palestinians, David, and deplore the violence in Gaza, but the Israeli fear of terrorism is based on hundreds of fatalities, here's a link to the suicide attacks perpetrated by Hamas alone.  As you know, there are more than a dozen other groups engaged in the same activity.  click here This does not mean the Palestinians don't have legitimate grievances.  They do.  But they are also being used as human pawns by Hamas.  Why doesn't that also offend your sensibilities?

In any case, my argument with Jane is that the comparison to Nazi Germany is invalid, is in poor taste, and is counterproductive.  Show me how it is not?  

by Mikhail Lyubansky (15 articles, 11 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:14:43 PM

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So....lets get this straight: No one is wearing 1940s style clothing here so any allusions to it being like the Warsaw uprising is just nonsense.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:28:09 PM

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"The comparison is invalid."

I know a lot about the Nazi era, I have studied it for 30 years.

I say the comparison is valid.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:31:32 PM

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.."the scale of the violence in Gaza, while deplorable (one lost life is too many), cannot even be measured on the same scale as what the Nazis called "The final solution".  

The scale of violence in the period of the past week is BEYOND the scale of violence used by the Germans in Warsaw by several degrees.

And, it has not come to it's climax! This is just a week old my friend and you don't know how far the Israelis are willing to go.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:37:10 PM

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Okay, so the Palestinians took a bit longer than the Germany Jews to be exterminated or spread to the four winds.  And the Israeli mafia took a bit longer to kill them all off.  But the effect is the same -- resistance, futile resistance and death.  Remember Shantilla?  Remember the Polish blitzkrieg?  The analogy stands.  It's just in slow motion.  And like Peter Barus mentioned when quoting Condoleeza Rice:  "We are looking for a sustainable and lasting solution."  A final solution perhaps?

by Jane Stillwater (507 articles, 0 quicklinks, 9 diaries, 77 comments [3 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 6:21:15 PM

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from "Dr. Rice, the war criminal?" Oh, that's right, the US msm said whe was "busily working the phones."

Doing what, taking a shopping list of weapons Israel wants us to GIVE them?

by David Hastings (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 116 comments [5 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:40:31 PM

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Rice was talking about a sustainable ceasefire.  I couldn't even find a quote from her during the last year where "sustainable" and "solution" were juxtaposed, not that there is anything wrong with doing so.  Here's a link to the AP article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28449657/

You and Peter Barus can twist any words to mean what you want them to mean, but that doesn't make them true.

By the way, Jane, how come you're not taking issue with Ahmadenijad's on and off call to wipe Israel off the map (notice that my link provides a multi-perspectived analysis on his controversial comments).  Isn't that closer to a "final solution?"

click here

by Mikhail Lyubansky (15 articles, 11 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:57:14 PM

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" Ahmadenijad's on and off call to wipe Israel off the map "

And why aren't you aware that this is a mistranslation?

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:40:17 PM

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The link I included quotes linguists who correct the mistranslation (he meant the government, not the State), but notice that he seems to be misunderstood again and again and again, in one speech after another.  And Arafat made similar statements.  I am a bit comforted that it was a mistranslation (it is preferable to the alternative), but remain wary all the same.

by Mikhail Lyubansky (15 articles, 11 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 11:43:19 PM

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Of UN Resolution 242?

Israeli occupation of any land otside of the 1967 boarder is ILLEGAL. Period.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 at 1:15:27 AM

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I find the comparisons compelling even though I know Jews hate to have Israel compared to WWII Germany.  It is not so much the precise equivalence of the two as the general concept of herding people into a walled off region.  Controlling food and medical supplies that reach them and ultimately deciding to kill them with the sheer power of your military might.  Is it really relevant if they fight back and contest these conditions before or after the all out slaughter begins?

All wars have at their core an unwillingness to resolve differences, a lack of interest in finding common ground or seeking a cooperative resolution to issues that embraces everyone as an equal.  Force is embraced as THE solution to the differences between two factions at war.  When one side has a hugely superior force, the outcome of such a conflict is never in doubt.  People may assume strength is somehow associated with being "right" and the weaker side is automatically "wrong" or the "problem".  However, history shows war does not define “right” or “wrong” only who is the strongest and/or most able.

When innocent people are being killed because leaders are unwilling, unable or uninterested in trying to resolve their differences, NEITHER side wins.  I do expect the strongest side to show the greatest of restraint and to do everything within its power to resolve the problems and reduce the tensions that leads to such conflict.  Anyone who thinks Israel has been trying to do this really needs a history lesson.  Putting up a 20 foot wall around the entire region, controlling access of food and medicine into the region, controlling the movement of Palestinians into and out of the region and treating them as second class citizens is hardly what I would classify as reducing tensions, treating people as equals or trying to resolve problems or differences.  It has facilitated tensions, increased hatred and led to greater and greater anger and frustration.  This is true not just in Gaza, but the West Bank as well.  Does anyone truly expect these actions are designed to encourage or facilitate peaceful coexistence or resolution of anything?  With great power comes great responsibility, not great opportunity to do whatever you want.  If we learned anything from the Bush years, I would have thought that lesson would have sunk in by now.

by Peter Wedlund (3 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 211 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 8:18:04 PM

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You make some good points, Peter. Certainly those with more power have the responsibility to exercise greater restraint, and yes, the partitioning of the territories (and also the building of settlements) is problematic in regard to resolving the conflict. But is Nazi Germany really the most appropriate comparison?  Why not instead compare the "rounding up" of Palestinians to how the U.S. government treated the indignous peoples of this country? And why is it that those who make comparisons to the Nazis never seem to acknowledge that the Israeli violence takes place in the context of terrorism?

by Mikhail Lyubansky (15 articles, 11 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 184 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:29:18 PM

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Let us not forget, if we are going to use this term "terrorism", that Israel was founded on and is maintained as a state through terrorism.

Start with the King David Hotel, and move foreward tic by tic through the history, before you attempt to refute what I just said.

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:47:06 PM

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"Ultimately, the issue is not about Hamas versus the Israeli government, or even Palestine versus Israel, but between supporters of international humanitarian law and those who believe the United States and its allies are somehow exempt."--Zune

Click here:

http://www.alternet.org/audits/117475/democrats_are_cowards_in_the_face_of_israel%27s_brutality/?page=entire

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Tuesday, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:54:52 PM

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Let us not forget that it was Israel, which in fact created Hamas. According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".

by William Whitten (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4880 comments [1686 recommended, 28 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jan 7, 2009 at 12:44:21 AM

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I wonder when Jane Stillwater will write her piece about Hezbollah's now launching rockets into Israel unprovoked.  Or, when Israel responds in kind, will she write a piece about the "horrible bloodshed" in Lebanon next?  I'm betting the latter.

by CJ (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 27 comments) on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 at 4:35:22 PM

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