I don't believe that

at all.  We've all heard this argument in 2004, in 2000, etc., etc., etc.

Having watched the dem party eat it's own while protecting, aiding and abetting the worst of criminals, this argument doesn't fly with me. Truly, Obama's recent self-unveiling has anchored my decision to not consider myself a democrat anymore. Even if Kucinich tried to rally his supporters to get behind Obama, I could not and would not do it...and I hold Special K in the utmost high regard.

My decision is between Nader and McKinney. If I had money to throw their way, I would; unfortunately, I don't so I have to give them the only thing I have which is my vote and hope for the best. That is, if I get to see them on the ballot.

I have no hope regarding the thugs and other thugs. They have proven themselves, over time, to be incompetent and unreliable when it comes to the people or the society as whole. Their own welfare? Well, now, they seem to be highly motivated and successful in 'gettin' 'er done!'.

Obama is not the only choice unless you are a dem-party-loyalty-unto-death voter

by NettieMae (0 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 24 comments) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 10:15:31 AM
 

It is not a question of belief

As I pointed out, the suffragettes fought for over 100 years to win the franchise. Do you think that during that time they supported, but then were betrayed by, politicians over and over again? Of course!

The fact that Obama, or his handlers inside the beltway, now perceive that his best chance to gain the White House is to attract those in the "center"? - however wrong this idea is - is not a rational reason to allow McCain victory.

And a vote for anyone but Obama guarantees this. And the fascist, rich people, who could care less about economic fairness and social justice, will be quite happy that you've registered your protest vote.

The fact that Obama appears to have abandoned his progressive positions (hopefully only temporarily) is the "fault" of progressives. Our movement is not yet strong enough, but like the suffragettes we can't give up because to let McCain win will only make it harder for our descendants to change things.

I agree that it's disillusioning to have such promise so near, and then to be let down, but that's how change happens. Not just with women's vote, but check the labor movements of the late 1800's and early 1900's.

It is simply not realistic to think that after 12 years of Reagan-Bush, 8 years of centrist Clinton, and then another 8 years of Bush, that we can turn this around so easily. We need to continue to fight.

And we CAN win. Look at some of the western European countries, and Commonwealth countries like Canada and Australia. They have better education, healthcare, environmental laws, etc. I'm not saying they're perfect, but they ARE moving in the right direction - and so can we!

Please do not throw your vote away and give an advantage to the fascists. Because the reality such a decision (no belief here either) is that this vote would be a betrayal (much like how Obama seems now) to progressives who need you.

by Houston Radical (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 76 comments) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 1:18:08 PM
 

NETTIEMAE

  I can certainly understand your frustration, but I hope you will reconsider how you are going to vote. lobbyist, and main stream media are the reason you are left with the three lousy choices you have. You had two good men    campaigning,Ron Paul (rep.), and Dennis Kucinich (dem) both were honest people, and there was on way in hell MSM,and lobbyist corporations were going to let them in. They destroyed both of them, with nothing more than silence, but for you to vote for an independent because Obama doesn't measure up,makes the reality of another republican in the White House   more likely. MSM and corp lobbyist will do the same thing to independents , they did to Kucinich,and Paul. vote for what you believe, I just wanted to make a point

by GUY P. FRASER (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 61 comments) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 3:42:16 PM
 

The Lesser of Evils Remains Evil

Nettie May has a handle on the situation.  The rest of us need to wake up and refuse to further to participate in the extortion racket foisted upon us by the major parties, who have stolen our power from us. It is not time for "Business as Usual."  Realize this: at this point no election is going to CHANGE anything because we are given only the illusion of choice to begin with.

John Adams, when it became clear that the United States was to become a constitutional republic, remarked that it was just as well, since the responsible few always end up in charge, regardless. Well, the responsible few have long since ceased to discharge their responsibilities responsibly. They have succumbed to the lure of gold and empire. Historically where that has always led is to tyranny and ruin.  We are there now.

Tyrants absolutely love elections because elections give them the illuion of credibility and respectibility.  Our "Ruling Elites" have murdered their way across the planet in pursuit of wealth, drained our treasury, and destroyed our currency. Ruin is now upon them, and the only option left to them is totalitarianism, for a functional republic would effeciently and effectively hold them responsible for their misdeeds.

So, here we are with our constitution in shreds, our liberties and rights ignored, looking down the gunbarrel of global (perhaps nuclear) warfare and nearly certain economic collapse. Those among who are still in denial continue to encourage us to continue to play this hopelessly rigged game. Our game, the constitutional republic, is over.  If we want to get it back in a functional form, it is ABSOLUTELY IMPERATIVE that we cease to pretend that we now have a real choice in anything regarding our current government.

Real CHANGE almost never happens from within a system. Systems generally are set up to maintain themselves. Change is a threat to that fragile "order" and is therefore discouraged by the system.  Consequently, usually when the system becomes seriously dysfunctional, the saving change it requires must come from outside, not from the inside.

Obama is owned by the system. He CANNOT effect any real change because he is being rewarded by the system to maintain the status quo.  At best he can hold our hands, and give us comforting rhetoric, while continuing to exploit us and enabling the failing system in its ultimte demise. He can give us the illusion of change, but not the substance. That does not look like a choice to me, not a real choice at any rate. And it most certainly is NOT real CHANGE.

Our government has removed from us any choice we originally had. Cope with that. They have exchanged our constitution for the illusion of choice and freedom.  They have turned their backs on us and brought our nation to ruin. Want to continue to participate in that game? I elect out!

At this point I suspect that, even if ALL of Obama's support were thrown to a third party candidate, the election would be rigged for a different outcome. Failing that, elections can be cancelled for any number of reasons, including most likely a "national emergency," which "necessitates the suspension of all constitutional rights." Clearly, elections in a rigged system are a sham and an illusion, and any way we look at it we lose.

So, what's the solution? What can we DO? The current system bears within it the seeds of its own destruction and will inevitably collapse. That will transpire sooner rather than later, if we refuse to participate in it. And there are a myriad of other ways in which, both individually and collectively, we can choose not to support and enable the existing, dysfunctional system.  Essentially, we can take a page from their own book, turn our backs on them and simply allow them to fail.

The constitution stolen from us contains within it a provision (actually a requirement, upon request) for a periodic constitutional review to be held, such that the constitution could be updated and modified to fit changing times, peoples and conditions. We can do this ourselves, and outside of the existing governmental framework.  The constitution given us is a stunningly marvelous gift, and I believe would make an excellent starting point for the drafting of a new constitution.  Hopefully, that constitution will be available for use at such time as the current circus has bankrupted itself and eaten enough of its own as to become no longer viable. My personal hope for that document is that one of its central components will be explicit and unequivovacable provisions mandating the swift removal, imprisonment and prosecution of any individual or entity which seeks to violate the basic framework or bill of rights contained therein, and that the punishments prescribed for such violations would be so swift and severe as to make such violations unthinkable and abhorrant.  If we get a second chance, this must NEVER happen again!

"Those who make peaceful evolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable."     J.F.Kennedy

 

by g.z. (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 4 comments) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 4:28:08 PM
 

It will collapse if we refuse to participate?

A quick check of history reveals that this is not the case. Apathy will only allow those in charge to solidify their position. If there is no opposition, then what force will ultimately produce their downfall? Romanesque destruction? Maybe, but bear in mind that before the aristocrats suffer and fall, the population will will suffer first and most. And that means our children.

by Houston Radical (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 76 comments) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 5:31:24 PM
 

And Change does happen

Your time-frame is corrupted by your need for instant gratification. 500 years ago slavery existed all over the world - now it only exists in a few places. Thinking over the past 100 years, Women did get the right to vote, our environmental protections and our children are getting a better education, etc.

It's been known since the 60' that the return on the dollar for the original GI Bill was a 7-fold bonus because those soldiers got better jobs, paid more taxes and ended up contributing much more than they would have if the GI Bill didn't exist (and the aristocrats fought the first GI Bill as hard as they fought the new GI Bill). So the long-term view should be that all education across the board should be free, because it would pay for itself. This is not speculation, it is factual.

Aristicrats veiw the world in terms of zero-sum-gain. They cannot understand the concept that if a person is helped, then that same person might make their own contirbution. This truism is hard to understand because many successful people worked through hard times themselves.

But to punish future generations because Obama isn't progressive enough is STUPID!

Who in the hell do you think you're punishing? Obama?? He's going to be fine regardless. But the rest of us will be suffering.

In real dollars, over the past 30 years wages have been steadily decreasing, as well as pensions and savings; and the following have been steadily increasing: work hours, groceries, bankruptcies, etc. Basically every single economic indicator has been getting worrse and worse.

This is because of the strangle-hold that big business has on our system. People have only been waking up to this situation for the past 5 years or so (some longer, some not yet). It's pretty darn naive to think that we can turn this around in 4 years. For Obama to change the system he has to first rise to the top.

Do you think that progressive pressure will be more effective on Obama or McCain?

Do you think that Obama will go to war as quickly as McCain?

Do you think that Obama will help the economy or make it as bad as McCain?

Do you think that Obama will nominate the same people for the Supreme Court as McCain?

If you believe any of these, then you've not been paying attention and you are cynical beyone rationality.

A protest vote against Obama ensures more war, more torture, more conservative judges. And I think Obama is much better than Kerry, much better than Clinton. Not as good as Kucinich or Edwards, but they're history.

by Houston Radical (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 76 comments) on Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 5:56:00 PM
 

Our Dictatorship was Sixty Years in the Making

Since we took sixty years to establish our dictatorship, any reform will not come easily. The devil has the people by the throat. They did it through manipulating the information fed to the public. Three generations of children grew into mindless zombies who can't distinguish between a Presidential Directive and an Article from the Constitution.

The baby boomers have come to power and the results are apparent. 

by Jason Paz (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 72 comments) on Sunday, July 6, 2008 at 3:11:18 AM
 

Of course, it's a matter of belief

Everything is. I believe the dems are fearmongers. I believe that they are willfully incompetent. I believe that they work against my best interests. I believe they are criminals. And yet, you believe I should vote for a dem or we all will die.

I believe the dems ran this by me already. ad nauseum. 

I believe in my inner compass.

I believe you are either misguided or paid to advance this viewpoint of fearmongering.

I believe George Carlin: we are fucked and it helps to remember that.

It's always a matter of belief in everything, everyday.   

I believe I am right.

 

 

by NettieMae (0 articles, 1 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 24 comments) on Sunday, July 6, 2008 at 6:45:45 AM
 

N M

  don't put words in my mouth, thats not what i said. Iwas merely making

a friendly point, but excuse me

by GUY P. FRASER (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 61 comments) on Sunday, July 6, 2008 at 6:09:20 PM
 

GROW UP!!

Obama is easily the most progressive candidate we've seen in over 30 years, but you babies won't vote for him because he isn't pure enough for you?

You'd rather work to put McCain in office because you can't have your way 100% of the time??

GROW UP !!

THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH HARDER IT WILL BE IF MCCAIN WINS !!!

by Houston Radical (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 76 comments) on Sunday, July 6, 2008 at 2:31:29 PM
 

Obama

is not a progressive. He merely mouths progressive words.

You are making a serious error in separating him from the Democratic Party. Even if he were a progressive, they would not allow him to function a one as the DP is no longer progressive in itself.

There are real progressive candidates to look to in Nov. Find one for yourself.

by Jack Harrington (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 274 comments) on Sunday, July 6, 2008 at 9:25:05 PM
 

Vichy Congressional Dems

The analogy is fitting. Mr. Obama's movement to the 'center' should come as no surprise. Over a year and a half ago, Obama was accepting money from Bush's big money backers. Anyone who gets as much pre-nomination main-stream press attention as Obama did should raise red flags for progressives and true Bring Our Troops Home Now voters. Also, just looking at Obama's voting record (against capping the interest rate for credit card companies at 30%) tells me that he isn't a Democrat at all. Brezinski (Trilateral Commission) is prominent on his election staff. If it quacks like a duck.......

by Louise Legun (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1 comments) on Monday, July 7, 2008 at 5:00:58 AM