The Texas SC refers to children as "possessions"

"...return of the child to the parent . . . entitled to possession unless the court finds sufficient evidence..."

While it may be common in some courts, it is an archaic and inhumanitarian way to refer to an individual. The children have not yet grown into their rights, apparently.

I hope there is a huge backlash and that the TX court is overturned. In a case such as this, they should have waited for the evidence that it was safe to return the children.

From what I've seen and read, the parents willingly gave up their ability to think clearly and their moral obligation to serve as their childrens' protectors. The charges of  sexual abuse as well as physical abuse have not been unproven.

Further, the Texas courts acknowledged: "While there was evidence that twenty females had become pregnant between the ages of thirteen and seventeen, there was no evidence regarding the marital status of these girls when they became pregnant or the circumstances under which they became pregnant other than the general allegation that the girls were living in an FLDS community with a belief system that condoned underage marriage and sex."

The Texas court sees nothing wrong with children becoming pregnant in the cult of a convicted sexual deviant? And returns the children??

It must be some kind of f****ed up state's rights test for the judges because they certainly aren't protecting these kids.

by Kathlyn Stone (42 articles, 219 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 637 comments) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 at 9:08:53 AM
 

Thanks for the elaboration!

From their own words, they stand condemned as the very worst quibblers on a topic of life and death for these children.  They are treated like chattle and the court is the great enabler here.  These judges can't be allowed to stay.  There was no real dissent.  And the notionl that the alternative services would work is silly.  It's a cult, for goodness sakes.  Cults don't open up.

Excellent points. 

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Saturday, May 31, 2008 at 6:50:51 PM
 

As you lead cheers for the neo-con gestapo

remember YOUR children may be the next to be removed from the home. When constitutional law is ignored to further a lathered up bunch of politically correct "guardians" of morality it will be difficult to have the law applied in the future. If the FLDS children are not returned to their families no home will be safe. Indictments for abuse must come before any child is removed from the home and on a case by case basis. Blanket removals will set the precedent that will enable the neo-nuts to revive youth for hitler right here in middle America. This is not about abuse or protecting children, it is about conforming to the image of the beast. Anything that represents decency, modesty or non-conformity must be crushed, and it appears that the authorities have many cheerleaders.

by john riggs (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 425 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 1:12:35 PM
 

Nonsense

Read my articles and tell me I'm a neo-con cheer leader.

Take a look at what was going on there. By your standards, any environment would be tolerated for children because this one pushes the limits of comprehension. From what's emerged, there are direct and indirect victims. Plural marriages involving adolescent females to to male husbands decades older is abuse, clear and simple. Forcing children to expeirence that, either direcdtly or by observation and interaction in the CLOSED environment, is cruelty. That's more than enough rational to remove the kids until the investiation is complete.

The results of the process are already emerging. The parents won't even provide the minimal cooperation to receive their children back. What a sham.

Children have rights too. They're not chattle, they're human beings and as such, they have all the rights of the rest of us. Since they can't choose to leave and even formulate a choice (due to the closed nature of the cult), they need protection.

The protective workers, law enforcement personnel, and Judge Barbara Walther are HEROES.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 1:38:15 AM
 

No proof of Incest as of Yet.

I think it is too early to know much about this case and the DHS is holding so much information. The DHS has made some public allegations alreaddy proven incorrect.

As I understand the situation, not all men in the compound have multiple wives, and many of these mothers classified as under sixteen are actually in their late teens and twenties with one as old as twenty-seven years old that DHS claimed was fourteen. When all the DNA results are made public we will know much more.

Even if they are a cult, they are still citizens of the United States who must be afforded every protection under the US Constitution and the State of Texas Constitution.

 It appears that all this was done on the whim of a well known woman who has a history of calling authorities telling lies about people holding her prisoner and raping her. She has long history. It, also, appears, that DHS painted with much too broad a brush in taking all the children and wanting to treat the compound as one big home rather than taking each parent and each child case by case.

Phil

by pratliff94 (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 962 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 2:42:44 PM
 

INCEST in the FLDS Community

1. Warren Jeffs is the "prophet" for those in the cult. He's been replaced technically but he set the standards and behaviors (see below).

2. Jeffs was been convicted of "two charges of rape as an accomplice " "The rape charges were based on a marriage Jeffs conducted in 2001 between Elissa X, then 14, and Allen Y, her 19-year-old cousin. "

3. Cousins marrying - verified in FLDS population. An extremely rare congenital condition, Fumarase Deficiency has been found at alarming levels in the FDLS community, so alarming that they asked a scientist to do a workshop for them. They asked how to stop it's spread in their community. The suggestion, stop letting cousins marry, was rejected.

"Until 1990 Tarby says he knew of only 13 cases of Fumarase Deficiency worldwide. Since, it has taken hold in the FLDS community because of intermarriage."

"The birth defect (Fumarase Deficiency Syndrome) has become increasingly prevalent within the FLDS community since 1990 when it was first identified by Dr. Theodore Tarby, an Arizona pediatric neurologist, now retired but formerly with the Children's Rehabilitative Services in Phoenix."

"The FLDS community, by and large, rejects the idea that Fumarase Deficiency is caused by genes, according to Tarby. "They have their mythology about the condition. They think it's something in the water, or something in the air," he says. Before Tarby retired in 2007, FLDS leaders invited him to address the community about the disorder and how to prevent it. He told them that prevention would involve barring marriages between people with the recessive gene, or asking those couples to forgo children. He suggested that families discontinue having children once the disorder presents itself, or test for the gene during pregnancy and selectively abort pregnancies with the deficiency. All were approaches rejected by the FLDS. "It's not something they are willing to do," Tarby says." Time

4. Outcomes for the cihldren. Fumarase deficiency found in first cousins: "They presented with progressive encephalopathy, dystonia, leucopenia, and neutropenia." Journal of Clinical Investigation

progressive encephalopathy - 1. slow - developmental abnormalities, delay in acquisition of language and motor milestones, cognitive affection, motor affection. (Development continues at a very slow rate leading to impairment. DQ and IQ ranged from low average to borderline to retarded range but relatively stable over time. 2. developmental abnormalities, delay in acquisition of language and motor milestones, cognitive affection, motor affection. (Development continues at a very slow rate leading to impairment. DQ and IQ ranged from low average to borderline to retarded range but relatively stable over time.

dystonia - The dystonias are movement disorders in which sustained muscle contractions cause twisting and repetitive movements or abnormal postures. The movements, which are involuntary and sometimes painful, may affect a single muscle; a group of muscles such as those in the arms, legs, or neck; or the entire body. Those with dystonia usually have normal intelligence and no associated psychiatric disorders. Link

This is not rocket science. The hair splitting skepticism is not founded, particularly considering the horror of these crimes and their outcome.

There's more than enough evidence that deviant sexual practices, including allowing first cousins to marry (aka "incest") is one of the practices that more than justify the removal of these children for their own safety.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 2:32:13 AM
 

Wrong

"Possession" is simply the legal term used to denote physical custody of children in Texas and many other states, and does not carry with it the evil connotation you attempt to attach to it.

Texas Child Protective Services is notorious for its witch hunts in which it uses the awesome powers of the state to destroy families based on little or no evidence of any real danger.

Even in this case, it has now been admitted that the original "complaint" from the "16-yr-old girl" was a hoax. They then proceeded to remove ALL the children from their families' custody as if it were a single household, and not a community of hundreds of households.

Simply put, they violated the law and illegally interfered with families without any proof of illegality or imminent danger to the children involved. It would be the same as if they came to your town and took away all the children of everyone living in your neighborhood because they suspected a couple of families were abusing their children.

And most of all, the Texas Supreme Court most certainly DID NOT, in any way whatsoever, "challenge [the] incest taboo" - and your title is sensationalistic and misleading.

by JC Garrett (38 articles, 61 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 555 comments) on Sunday, June 1, 2008 at 4:57:16 PM
 

"accessories before and after the fact" - Texas Supreme Cour

They most certainly endorsed the practices of the the FLDS. Take a look at my response above with the subject line "Incest in the FLDS Community." The leader endorses the practice and is convicted of sexual abuse for arranging marriages between first cousins. This practice is borne out by the high rate of Fumarase Defficiency, a congenital syndrome due to first cousins marrying, in the FLDS community in Hildale, UT - Colorado City, AZ. The outcomes of that are a tragedy, to be sure.

Spin your tales all you like. The DNA tests on the FLDS community in Eldorado, Texas will tell the story. And then those who, for whatever purpose, doubt the seriousness of all this will need to reach new levels of fantasy to deny the occurrence of incest and other crimes. That's what the FLDS community did in Hildale when they asked a scientist to explain the syndrome's alarming occurrence in their community ... they denied it had anything to do with intermarriage.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 2:45:34 AM
 

I agree

All the children of America must be taken into government custody and placed in government controlled housing until such a time that their safety can be assured.

I don’t think parents should have contact with their children unless a government monitor is present.

I think all Americans should have to prominently display their government I.D’s, be screened for weapons, and take off their shoes when entering any public (government) area.

All Americans should have to wear an American flag arm band pinned to their left upper arm to insure their loyalty to the government for which it stands.

Anyone found without the American flag arm band shall be publicly whipped and made to profess their support for the government on the steps of the local court house for two days.

The government will control all communications and travel. Those without government authority to travel shall be denied travel.

What a grand country this will be.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 608 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 1:41:52 AM
 

Are you serious?

This is utterly inane.  There's a specific topic here, child abuse.  It has many manifestations.  There's more than enough evidence that the worst of crimes may be committed against these children.  And you turn it into some issue about government domination and intrustion into the lives of families. 

What's your real agenda or are you simply this illogical?  

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 2:34:44 AM
 

Protect a parent's right to have sex with kids?

You seem to be saying so in this sarcastic comment.

Apparently you think it is ok to engage in rape and forced polygamy, too. Adult rights over children's rights. It doesn't even matter what "RIGHTS" this case is referring to.

There are times when government must step in and protect children when parents won't or are themselves committing crimes against their children.

Where is common sense when it comes to protecting children? This is about HUMAN RIGHTS, not some idiotic protection of state's rights or parental rights.

Please read this account from someone who lived in the area and knew about the FLDS cult. Apparently EVERYONE knew this was going on but felt powerless to stop it.

"My parents knew of this group when I was a child. Everyone in Utah and this area of Arizona has known about this group and others like it. But these communities are often gated, with arms and electric fences. It is dangerous to try to infiltrate or mix in any way.

There is no help for the young girls in these polygamous families. The girls are 14 or 15 and wed to men three or four times as old as they. These girls were born into the life, and for them there is no escape.

They have children of their own by the time they are 15. There is a name for this: child rape. It is also incest, as many of them marry a close blood relative, such as a half-brother, even though he may be many, many years older than she."

by Kathlyn Stone (42 articles, 219 quicklinks, 26 diaries, 637 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 7:41:26 AM
 

I think they should come for your children first

I’m sure there has been some kind of domestic violence on your block. I think they should come for your children first. This is an abusive environment for them. To let them walk around unsupervised while your writing on your computer is just criminal.

You should be locked up for your crimes against humanity. Everyone knows that the government knows best. The children are safer under state control.

Yes, the government has child molesters. They work there because that is where the children are kept.

But government is always better.

by Gallaher (2 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 608 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 12:25:02 PM
 

"ome kind of domestic violence on your block. "

You must be kidding or you've run out of gas.  There's no domestic violence - FLDS comparison.  We're through the looking glass with these people who practice inbreeding as part of their life style.  When that happens, children are injured.  Now you may agree with them that the genetic problems are from "the water" but I doubt it.  At the same time you can't acknowledge that the cult practices marriages that promote congenital diseases.  Becasue if you did, you'd have to acknowledge that they're harming their children immeasurably and sentencing the to lifes of pain and agony.  Your anti government stand means nothing since it promotes the type of suffering at FLDS compounds in Texas and Arizona.    Your defense of these crimes creates a government scenario without law enforcement authority.  Clever but it doesn't work in this situation.  When you won't even accept deliberate harm to children as a criterion for intervention, you've left the planet of reason and are in the hyperspace of self reinforcing illusions.

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 6:55:38 PM
 

Think

Ms. Stone,

Obviously, you have not stopped to put yourself in this position. Say you live in a small town, and most of the people in your neighborhood attend the same church. Your two younger children are cared for in the church nursery on Sundays while you and your husband attend the sermon with your two older children.

Your church is raided by people wearing full SWAT gear and carrying automatic weapons, who kick in the doors and yell for everyone to lie down on the floor. They round up ALL the children and take them to an unknown place.

You find out later that the husband of one of the nursery workers has been accused of having relations with the 15-yr-old daughter of another member. Both of them are deacons. It is believed that the girl's father knew about and condoned the illicit relationship. Authorities suspect that other men and teenage girls may be involved.

Your 2-yr-old daughter, 4-yr-old son, 13-yr-old daughter, and 16-yr-old son are all ripped away from you and everything they know, and you, your kids, and everyone who knows you has no doubt that nothing EVER happened to your kids. And you know that you would never allow anything like what you were being accused of to happen.

There is certainly no hint of proof that your children are involved. In fact, the only thing connecting your family to the entire mess is that you were members of the same church with a man suspected of a crime.

What would you do?

Is there really anything left to say?

by JC Garrett (38 articles, 61 quicklinks, 6 diaries, 555 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 5:49:46 PM
 

Ms. Stone wouldn't need to think about it.

I'll bet a crisp Franklin on this - because she doesn't belong to a cult which with polygymous marriage, marriage of children to adults, "inbreeding" as the geneticists call it at the behest of the "prophet."  Nobody needs to think about it without those and many more bizarre qualifiers.

I'm not one who a) trusts the government or b) favors intrusion into our private lives.  Criminal behavior, particularly involving children, is unacceptable.  When it's systematic, it's intolerable.  

Your general points don't apply to this particular at all.   

by Michael Collins (96 articles, 16 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 344 comments) on Monday, June 2, 2008 at 8:50:46 PM