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July 2, 2008 at 09:18:57
Promoted to Headline (H3) on 7/2/08: by scott creighton Page 1 of 2 page(s) |
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To sum up Olbermann's position, he claims that the timing of the Housing legislation that ran over and forced the actual vote of the FISA Bill to be pushed back till June 8th is a great opportunity for Obama; to vote FOR THE BILL. That's right, Olbermann's position is that Obama should vote FOR THE BILL. There's a lot of convoluted thinking that takes place in Keith O's comment, so we will take it one step at a time, shall we? First of all, the really "big picture" here that everyone is going to claim justifies this kind of complicity with the criminals in the White House, is that, in the end, Obama MUST win the White House at all costs. So, of course, this is the root of Oblermann's argument, that voting for this now will somehow help Obama win the election. 
"Because, flatly, of all the measures that can be taken to aid our damaged nation, and our de-valued constitution, the first, if not the foremost, is not blocking telecom immunity, but making sure no Republican is in the White House past noon next January 20th."
Glenn Greenwald (suspiciously not even mentioned in Olbermann's comment after it was Greenwald's reminding Olbermann of his original Special Comment on the subject where Keith called Bush a "Fascist" for supporting this legislation, that prompted this whole thing) pointed out earlier this week an election that just took place where a 12-time republican incumbent lost her seat to a 32-year-old newcomer, based on, among other things, his position on the FISA Bill. The Republican incumbent even ran an attack ad with the flag and the children and the terrorists and the democrat's refusal of the FISA bill and the dem still won by a 12 point margin. It wasn't even close.
Right now, with the economy what it is and the "war on terror" failing miserably, and republicans left and right practically begging for a new "terrorist" to save their campaigns, democrats across the board are in a very strong position.
And in fact, it's not hard to explain to fiscally conservative, smaller government voters that this FISA bill, as it is written, is wrong for this country.
But aside from all of that, Olbermann himself weakens his argument when he says that no matter what Obama does, he is going to be portrayed as being "weak on terror" no matter what. He says that Cheney will still call him "Osama with a tan" no matter what he does. Which is true; not that anyone but the 23% who are buying that crap anymore anyway, but that much I give Keith.
But then, Keith leaps to the unbelievable conclusion after saying that, that Obama should vote FOR THE BILL anyway. WHAT?
He then makes a terribly misguided argument that what's more important than this FISA Bill now, is the election later. Now, I don't want McCain in the White House anymore than most of you don't, but, let's face real facts; the vote has been rigged since 2000 and the only things that have happened since are that more of the paper-trail-less DieBold machines have been delivered and the democratic party has been telling us not to talk about "rigged elections." That doesn't bode well folks, for a free and clear election process.
But enough about that; let's assume Olbermann is correct and the most important thing here, even more important than our 4th amendment rights, is the election in Nov. What does that mean one way or the other.
1. McCain wins and the FISA Bill gives Lieberman (his VP in my guess) more power to snoop on American citizens; the telecoms are given retroactive immunity for criminal behavior and now that that is established, McCain and others see the real opportunity (they can conduct illegal activities carte-blanche and fully expect, if caught, that they will get something passed in the legislative branch that makes it legal latter); Bush gives a Full Pardon to the telecoms from criminal prosecution before he leaves office (like he won't do that no matter what); and we never know exactly who the US government was spying on BEFORE 9/11.
2. Obama wins and the FISA bill gives his Clinton campaign staff the exact same powers of illegal wiretapping; Bush still gives blanket pardons to the telecoms from criminal prosecution; and we still never know WHO WAS THE US GOVERNMENT SPYING ON ILLEGALLY BEFORE 9/11.
That's the wrinkle in the "criminal prosecution" argument of Keith's; that the pardon Bush will give these companies will protect them from investigation and prosecution.
Now, Keith O does mention that little flap, but he blows it off by saying that would imply a corruption on the part of the president and point to his complicity in the crimes. Well, that hasn't stopped them before and it won't stop them in the future, plus, there is nothing that can be done after that anyway, so Keith's argument is completely symbolic at that point.
He suggests that Bush wouldn't do it because it would implicate him when he did and cites Nixon's refusal to pardon his aides as proof. But Olbermann AMAZINGLY forgets to mention that Bush has ALREADY pardoned one person, Scooter Libby, so that he wouldn't turn state's evidence and sign about the Plame case. So, the Nixon argument is mute. We already know what Bush will do.
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Greenwald did write a response to Olbermann's Comment...
and it is very well worth the time to read. http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ Also worth noting, a huge contingent of Obama supporters on his website are calling for Obama to use this chance to take a stand against this Bill... http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters/333805/spy_protest_group_tops_obama_website by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:03:33 AM  (0+)
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It'll be criminal prosecution, not civil
Scott, before jumping into the fray and damning olbermann, consider waiting until later -- several years to be closer to the truth -- and see whether olbermann and john dean do indeed know what they are talking about, that it'll be criminal prosecution, not civil, that can be used against the telecommunication corps who complied with the bushies. we have yet to hear what the other legal mind olbermann ofter draws on, georgetown univerisity's Scott Turing, will weigh in on this matter. (i could have the turing name incorrect.) by Raymond McInnis (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 3 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:35:10 AM (0+)
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Reply: i would gladly agree...
were it not for the fact that this Bill will be voted on in less than a week. So waiting a year, doesn't do our 4th amendment rights much good. If the civil prosecution wasn't important to the bushies, then why press this hard for it? Remember, what is being asked for in the civil prosecution is the evidence: who they spied on, when, and what info did they get. That is why the Bushies don't want this to go through. If it does, we will see they were collection data on things and people that had nothing to do with "terrorism" and that they were using this program for political gain. Again, once this goes though, and Bush gives them a full pardon from prosecution, like Dean and Olbermann BOTH say can happen... ... there will be NO criminal prosecution in a year or at any time. And of course, our 4th amendment rights will still be gone. by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:48:36 AM (0+)
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We need to Take it to a New Level
Bush has collected a dandy number of tools to ferret out information on the present regime. Tortured under indefinite detention, the Republicans will gladly betray their cohorts. Since we lost our Republic in 1950 the Republicans generally play hardball to the sensitive Democratic softball. So, the Fascist dictatorship holds everyone else in fear. Until they are blue in the face, the bloggers can describe Republican mischief. Nothing will change. If we want our country back, we must break a few eggs to cook the omelette. by Jason Paz (68 articles, 89 quicklinks, 112 diaries, 1407 comments [100 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:15:14 AM (0+)
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I watch Keith every evening
the FISA bill is of great interest to me..I don't know what you heard..but I heard Keith clearly come out against the FISA bill and Obama's support of it...he said Obama should either vote no on it or if he couldn't do that (because of political pressure, "soft on terror") that he (Obama) should at least promise to "go after" the bill on a criminal charges..as John Dean has said..there is no immunity from a "criminal" charge, only civil...Keith was asking Senator Obama to pursue criminal indictments (through his A.G.) after he takes the Oath of Office"..clean your ears out..or "look up" the "big words" if you don't understand them by Susan Nelsen (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 288 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:28:19 PM (0+)
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Reply: Sorry, the "big words" are so difficult...
this is what he ended up saying... "Now buy yourself — and those who have most ardently supported you — something worth more than just class action suits against Verizon. Explain that you are standing aside on civil immunity, not just for political expediency, but for a greater and more tangible good — the holding to account, of the most-corrupt, the most dangerous, and the most anti-democracy presidential administration in our long history. Of course, if you disagree with this interpretation — if you think the FISA bill doesn’t have the giant loophole, or if you don’t think you, as president, would be ready to support criminal prosecution of… well, criminals — then your duty is clear. Vote against the FISA bill, if it still carries that immunity." He spent the entire first part of the comment explaining the "giant loophole" that Obama could use to bring "criminal prosectution" against the administration and the telecoms (except for the fact that Dean himself said that Bush could grant blanket immunity for them before he leaves office)... and he starts off this part with "...explain that you are standing aside on civil immunity..." which means, let the bill pass as is, and use the "loophole" later... and explain that as your reason. he finally says, if you don't think this loophole is good enough, vote against it. So, after spending 9.5 minutes arguing for a loop-hole that won't work, even according to Dean (though he argues that Bush would be admiting guilt to do it 9like Bush cares)), he then spends 15 seconds saying if all that isn't good enough, just vote against it. i understand the 'big words" thanks. by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:44:00 PM (0+)
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The Communications Theory behind Laft-Gatekeeping
THis is why they let the Olbermans on in the first place. He's got you thinking hes principled for months then when the big stuff comes down hes used so that the "new center" (always further rigth always) can say by Nathaniel Heidenheimer (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:37:32 PM (0+)
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Reply: Yep...
What gets me, is that if you read john Deans "paper' on the subject, it's nonsensical at best. there is no way to defend Obama's support of this FISA Bill as it is written. And Dean was called Nixon's "master manipulator" back in the Watergate Days. i just don't understand how people don't see that they are being played by Olbermann on these important issues. Even when Olbermann himself has to do a 'Special Comment" to spin damage control for his own credibility. by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:55:12 PM (0+)
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Watergate and Bush a NECESSARY COMPARISON!
Good point about Dean. I just dont get how so many "good libs" accept a very simplified view of Dean. by Nathaniel Heidenheimer (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 47 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 6:37:53 PM (0+)
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sad but possibly true
There was a time I wouldn't dare miss a night of Keith O's Countdown. He was the lone voice in the wilderness calling Bush & his flying monkeys out on his crimes. I cheered out lout at his special comments. There was always, however, a nagging doubt in the back of my mind that he did indeed work for GE and why in the hell would they let him get away with bashing thier guy?. Seems that doubt has finally taken form in his support of Obama and the FISA compromise. It should make anyone who thinks Obama isn't the corporate darling to think twice. I'm afraid I agree with Nathaniel. I think we've been had. And btw, Jonathan Alter is another left wing gatekeeper. His "performance" last week with Keith made we want to hurl one of those poisonous tomatoes at the tv screen. by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 7:22:46 PM (0+)
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People please ... stop ...
Olbermann is the "good" part of the "good-cop/bad-cop" Dog and Pony Show we could jokingly refer to as our Main Stream Media. Obama is irreverent. McCain is irreverent. They're pawns. You really think voting for something you know is bad is a commonsense thing to do? Isn't this the same insanity we hear all the time? I'm against NAFTA but I'm going down South to promote it. I'm against the war, but we have to fund our troops. You saw the Twin Towers fall down, not blow-up. Has it gotten to the point that not only do these cretins announce their crimes, commit them in broad daylight and then mock us? The mass mind control is evident. And I don't want to hear the bullshit argument that we have to take one step at a time, or it's about politics, it's way beyond anything anyone can imagine. Let me try to put this simply - never before in time, that we ordinary people are aware of, have we achieved the level of knowledge we now have and the ability to transfer that knowledge at near speed of light. And the more we find out we've been lied to, in every way one can be lied to, and we find out that a handful of people have been keeping tremendous knowledge and resources from us for no other reason than their Satanic pleasures, it gets beyond which whore politician is doing his tap-dance for the MSM to shovel to the brainwashed, drugged out, mesmerized masses to slop-up. Keep this kind of thinking up and you'll deserve the next knife in your back. It's time to stop being cowards and call them like we see them. Playing it safe isn't safe at all - it's exactly what Orwell called "double-think", holding two opposing thoughts in your head and justifying both. Stop it. Forget FISA - it too is irreverent. FISA was a joke before they made it a bigger one. They have you people fighting for something that was a laughing-stock to begin with. Can you please just stop and think how pathetic that is? Break out people! Turn off your God-damn televisions! We don't have any more time pontificate nuances of trivial matters. Screw what these clowns are saying! It's all lies! It's time to act. It's time we had courage to force people to notice. If you don't know it by now we could be free of all our worries just as soon as we get those whom hoard everything that could save us to let go. You can't have free health care, even though they have it. "I'm an "oil-man", I know how to talk to our Arab friends." Yes, indeed Budya, you do. The Elite's power is unimaginable. But we vastly outnumber them. And they have an Achilles Heel. The Bow is instant media via Internet and the Arrow is 9/11. Before those of you say I'm getting "off topic" I say, stuff it. 9/11 exposes the worst of the worst - all of them. It's the dividing line. If you aren't convinced by now that elements within our government were behind 9/11 you haven't looked at any of the evidence that's available and if you have and you're still not convinced you're either dense, in denial, too scared or working against truth getting out. Sorry, I'm just calling them like I see them. I'd do the same for your "golden-boy" Olberman who recently called the 35% of the populace that now says 9/11 was an inside job, "crazies", not long before Michael Reagan commanded his 4,000,000 listeners to "drag us out in the streets and shout them. I'll pay for the bullets." Nice company Olberman keeps. Yeah, it's that bad. And I'll guarantee you this, if enough of you don't break the spell of "playing it safe", you'll be playing right into their hands. And when the next "false flag" attack occurs they'll say, "Well gee, isn't it a "good thing" we voted for this Draconian legislation and all these presidential directives are in place, so we can turn what's left of America into a fascist hell of the likes not seen since Hitler's Germany," even though they didn't stop a million or so of you from getting killed, "and now that we have these unconstitutional laws we can use them against you, to keep you safe. And here, here's another law, it takes away your Internet, because this was a clear case of "cyber-terrorism". Don't ask how we know that or we'll introduce you to another little thing we call a "dissident's camp". But you're all nice little sheep now, so when I tell you working till you drop dead in one of our factories you'll know that you died for (y)our freedoms." All these things are there. I'm not making this up and in the back of your mind you know they are and that you can't allow thugs the time to use them. That's what they want us to do. Don't speak out. Wait. We'll have peace right after we "win" this war. Next letter you write, phone call you make, topic you bring-up to anyone of authority, or at your Bridge club, laundry, over dinner, at the bar, you ask questions about 9/11 and demand another investigation. What could it hurt? If indeed a proper investigation was done and it turned out millions of us are indeed "crazies" it would forever put this puppy to bed with little harm other than a lot of egg on a lot of people's faces. But if indeed it does expose the real criminals and they turn out to be the very people that have been lying to us all along, just think of the start we could have by cleaning this vermin from power and releasing all the wealth and knowledge they've been keeping from us. Instead of a "Hell on Earth" we could all, everyone of the six-billion of us, live truly free in a "Heaven on Earth." Look, if they can pull a crime like this off, and it can be proven they did, which it can, we can pull them down! by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [657 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:56:23 PM (0+)
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Reply: Some Eyes Still Wide Open...
"Has it gotten to the point that not only do these cretins announce their crimes, commit them in broad daylight and then mock us? The mass mind control is evident." I just spent a day argueing with a "progressive" site that the 4th amendment is something that we should be concerned about, perhaps even more so than Saint Obama. and these same people 4 weeks ago were praising Olbermann's attack on Bush for the FISA Bill. Now, it's just, one of those things I guess. it's amazing how prevasive this group-think is. They have twisted their "hope" into the leash they keep them in line with by getting Obama to stuff that salespitch down everyones throat. It's brilliant really. Not that different than what you mention when you say the "buildings FELL down, they weren't BLOWN up". I mean, people can still see right? They can figure out that when stuff "falls down" it doesn't shoot 2 ton pieces of steel 300 yards away so hard it sticks in another building. people can still see right? Check out my site. I do alot of 9/11 truth stuff. I am doing some research on det cord demolition practice. If you are interested I have a blog on 9/11blogger and I put forward the idea to Steven Jones. I am almost done with it. It's good to see people with wide open eyes these days. it seems that so many have just quit or gone silent expecting .. I don't know what. by scott creighton (25 articles, 11 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 244 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:13:02 PM (0+)
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Agreed on the OH PLEASE, Mr M
I am struggling to find words.. It has been obvious, for quite some time, that he is basically a DNC mouth piece, like Sean Hannity is the RNC mouthpiece... He is there to defend whatever any Deomcrat candidate says while crucifying anything that any republican candidate says... by steve scheetz (4 articles, 0 quicklinks, 3 diaries, 832 comments [54 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 2, 2008 at 11:27:33 PM (0+)
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Keith O and the final betrayal
Mr M I couldn't agree with you more. The only way to bring down the fascist regime is to expose 9/11 for the inside job it was. I have handed out dvds, books and spoken to as many people as I can about what REALLY happened that day. I long ago convinced my family and two of my very best friends. My son has also handed out dvds at his work and has turned even an avid bush supporter around to the truth. The people I work with? No, they still stare at me blankly and change the subject if I bring up anything related to 9/11 or the climate in the country today (and I'm not talking weather). These are not stupid people but rather willfully ignorant. They just don't want to know and it's maddening to the point that I don't even want to talk to them anymore. I really don't care who won dancing with the stars or what murder case 48 hours is investigating now. Unfortunately for those of us awake and alert, there are too many willfully ignorant sheeple. They need to wake up right NOW..not tomorrow.. NOW ! Another false flag will only make them fearful of the "terrorists" and they will then be all to happy to give up any last shred of liberty we have left. Martial law is what this cabal is aiming for. They will convince the sheeple, as they did with Iraq, that Iran is a threat to the U.S. They will stage something, blame it on the Iranians that will enable them to declare martial law and round up all the compliant little sheeple for their own good. What do you think all those camps Halliburton has been busy building is about? As for McCain and Obama? I've stated this in other posts. They are just two sides of the same corporate coin. It matters not which one takes the presidency because either will do the bidding of their corporate warlords. It's sickening to hear my fellow liberals put their faith and hope in a man who has long since left them behind. Is it me or is he starting to sound more and more like an eloquent George W Bush? How pathetically sad that people think that they really have a choice. Back to topic. Bill Maher has been dead to me since he said wiretapping was ok as long as it was used to catch the terrorists. Oh, and that torture was ok as long as the govt didn't talk about it. But the final nail in his coffin came when he threw the 9/11 truthers out of his studio. Keith Olbermann? Who's Keith Obermann? by jersey girl (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1201 comments [734 recommended, 12 rejected]) on Thursday, Jul 3, 2008 at 6:09:43 AM (0+)
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Jay Bird Street
I also agree with Mr. M. (who is typically spot on)… but I wonder.. did he mean ‘irrelevant’? In any case, note that the CIA’s Mockingbirds Never Went Away. Olbermann, Maher and their associated assorted ilk are almost definitely among the neo-Mockingbird flock. Limited hangouts, disinformation, distraction - stock in trade for these treasonous pond scum. by richard (0 articles, 5 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 1370 comments [407 recommended, 8 rejected]) on Thursday, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:59:01 AM (0+)
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Reply: Thanks for catching that ...
I did indeed use the wrong word ... my bad. by Mr M (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 66 diaries, 2845 comments [657 recommended, 27 rejected]) on Thursday, Jul 3, 2008 at 8:17:44 AM (0+)
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