I would encourage you to  read my ' Slimy Love' series  in articles  and diaries if I may ( also my 'Israel- a haunted land') There you would find hopefully  the  at least partial answer to  your  doubts and also hopefully would understand that  the only way to respect the Jews is to acknowledge that they are the same as everyone else. As such  they can be bigots, idiots, murderers and racists and still grieve about their  losses. Here is wisdom, Mr. Haigh: the Jews are as everyone else but  we all need to understand that victims of horrible violence, those who died in Genocide ( yes, Roma people( the proper name of Gypsies), homosexuals, Russian POWs, mentally disabled obviously too)- all  those who died are surely martyrs, victims, by definition innocent victims, better than those who  did that horrible deed.  That reference, that standard is a  tough thing and many of the people currenrtly living cannot handle it. They, thus overwhelmed by guilt and inferiority  either use the tragedy for their purposes ( like Israely govt) or try to make money on it  ( like our goody- goody MSM which does not give a damn about anyone).  You have  to differ always the reality from illusion, the true feelings from the fake ones, the true grief from the hypocricy. That's the  greatest, the ONLY positive lesson of the Shoah ( I hate that Holocaust name) and that lesson is not for everyone.  It  requires empathy. Jews ( not jews, Mr.  Haigh,please) do not have to prove anything to you or me or whoever. Everyone dies alone and alone we are evaluated.  Go read Norman Finkelstein if I may suggest.  For the honest and proud Jews Shoah is never forgotten.  The ashes of Dahau and Treblinka is  knocking at our hearts forever. It tells us that NOBODY should go through something like this. NOBODY can be targeted for elimination  or considered ' trash', NOBODY  has to prove to other people his/her right to exist.  Whoever is targeted that way is our brother. That's what we pursue.

Those  people you have quoted  are racists and bigots,  dishonest souls. They are not intelligent. In one of my articles I called them the "Juwes' per Jack the Ripper's graffiti. Beware of them. They  are a part of us but the worst one.

Please, see us for what we really are.

There is one more thing: the questions the way you asked them were, sorry to say, inappropriate. Imagine someone asking here an  Indian  if maybe Indians should have been  behaving differently so that the people who killed them would not then have done that. Put yourself in their shoes and imagine someone asking you ( if you belonged to the persecuted ethnic group) your types of questions.   Thus the reaction to your questions was understandable ( although  its essence was unfortunate).  No, Mr. Haigh, for the sake of all of us the Genocide cannot be forgotten. The perpetrators of Genocide do it again, recently in Uganda,  afterwards- ethnic cleansing in Iraq, etc.  The questions  must be not ' whether maybe you and your people should have done something differently' but  ' how we together  do something differently'. Do not separate yourself, Mr. Haigh.  Shoah is also your legacy. The Bell tolls also for thee. As one Russian song says:

' And with the ashes from Dachau

I came alive back on my land'

BTW,  I agree that  the vast majority of the Shoah- related slimy love events organized here are  tasteless, stupid, harmful to the cause and to the children alike.  I would promote the real approaches,  emphacising the courage, dignity and humanity of the victims, also would specify the historism and the sinister role of many powerful forces. I also would  promote the statement that we all are in it and that  such things can happen and did happen  anywhere and any place and to anyone. That's important- to ANYONE.

Thanks

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 at 7:53:19 AM

  (0+)

thanks, John, you bring up a practical situation that is, as is everything else, driven by the laws of quantum physics, as evidenced in such books as The Field by Lynn McTaggert, and other writings by Dr. Bruce Lipton, Gregg Braden, Fred Alan Wolf, and many others.

This is how I understand the mechanism:

According to quantum physics, everything is vibration, and the emotional level that we tend to vibrate at, is the actual invitation for the experiences we get presented with.

Someone who vibrates at a victim level, will tend to have the kinds of experiences that reconfirm that particualr vibration. This does not mean they want to be a victim of a specific thing on purpose. This is what might be called a default, or unconscious, vibration. It can mean that they are afraid to be a victim of a specific thing, have been taught to think victim type thoughts, or they continue to replay memories of victimhood of a specific thing. We all know people who have brought upon themselves the very thing they feared (and probably thought about) the most.

Someone who vibrates at a joyful success level, will tend to have the kinds of experiences that reconfirm the joyful success vibration. If they haven’t been successful in life thus far, they can bring on success by continually replaying memories of a small past success, or another persons’ past success, or even an envisioned future success, as long as they are feeling positive emotions about it. There are many wonderful "rags-to-riches" stories that exemplify this.

Bottom line is, that, according to quantum physics, we get what we predominantly think about AND FEEL DEEP EMOTION ABOUT. And it is hard to tell just by looking at someone, what they think, dream, or fear the most.

For some reason, this concept seems to make many people upset and angry. However, it makes me happy, because it is the key to having dominion over my own experience, and is the path to deep and satisfying joy. And I have found that in my life, it works every time.

As Fred Alan Wolf says, "There is no "out there," out there. It all is generated from within, either on purpose, or by default.

by Meryl Ann Butler (70 articles, 82 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 721 comments [29 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 at 2:42:33 PM

  (0+)

Mark, your response was both insightful and kind. But even you seem to be asking for a special pass based on the persecution your people have suffered.

My question was "How could you have played it differently?" I am mindful that the Chinese have a large diaspora that, with the exception of Indonesia, has been larely untroubled even though they are usually much more wealthy than the general population they live among. I have never had a Chinese person tell me that his people are persecuted.

It beggars belief to me that Jewish people have never asked themselves "everywhere we go we get persecuted, what can we do to stop or minimise this bad treatment?" But even you find the question offensive. It seems more logical than offensive.

Interestingly I do have an American Indian friend - the only one I ever met in Australia - and  I did ask him a very similar question. It lead to an amiable discussion on tactics and an analysis of the inter-tribal relationships of the Indians of the past. He didn't show any sign of offense at the question. How is it offensive?

He saw himself as a member of a defeated people but he didn't see himself as persecuted. He told me how, in America, Indians face discrimination; but the discrimination didn't define him. He talked of ways of getting around it.

There is something about the way Jews hold on to the idea of being persecuted that is not healthy for them.

The hawkish ones use it as a free pass to commit atrocities. The others as a reason to demand special treatment.

We find what we obsess about.

We even have the phenomena of Jews desecrating Jewish graves. their own cars and dormitory doors. What's going through their minds?

You say that the Jewish people I quoted were not intelligent. But they were intelligent. They had carved out interesting roles for themselves in society, they were quick witted and sophisticated people.

You say that the genocide cannot be forgotten. Of course that is correct. But I think that Jewish people obsess about it far too much. In Australia we have ANZAC Day when we remember the soldiers who fought, suffered and died for their country. The motto is "Lest We Forget." But it's once a year. We don't carry on about it all the time.

I have never hit a woman in my life, but once found myself in a relationship with a woman whose previous partner had beaten her. We had a bad incident and I found I had an urge to hit her! Of course I didn't. But I was amazed that she was the only women in my life who had stimulated that desire in me.

The question as to the reasons that Jews have suffered so much persecution in so many countries over such a long period of time is one that Jews would be foolish not to address.

by John Haigh (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 118 comments) on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 at 4:56:36 PM

  (0+)

1. I must have forgotten that in this country people do ask questions about everything and everyone:) You reminded me of that and I am grateful.

2. On the other hand, what you have enocuntered with the Jewish people was twofold: one aspect was bigotry and racism, not specifically Jewish thing ( BTW, here I need to clarify that in the culture I was born and raised the manifestation of those unfortunate qualities automatically disqualify a person from the definition of being intelligent: we associate intelligence with empathy).another was a manifestation of the Jewish religious conviction. Per the covenant of the Jewish religion ( and it does not matter in many cases if the person is a practicing Judaist) the Jews are chosen people, higher than others, God's people, He is their ruler. As such any hatred towards them is considered a devilish manifestation of the Hatred towards God. Thus the curiosity questions, especially the ones you have asked are considered at best the questions of the ignorant. That is, of course also promoted by our media which cultivates slimy love. This also explains the totally gruesome statements about Roma people- even in Death Jewish religion in its orthodox part dictates Jews to be different from others. Some comedians call this ' Jewish origin is a diagnozis' I though considered the questions inapppropriate for another reason- for the reason of perceived disconnect, sort of the role of neutral observer. As I have mentioned, Shoah is yours as well as ours. As such the approach should be not what ' Jewish people should have reevaluated' but ' what went wrong between all people, what anomaly took place'. In many cultures of Eastern origins ( and we, Jews are Easterners, no matter what Dr. Dobson says about us) cold curiosity and 'study questions' are considered extreme personal offense. Being a Russian Jew I know that well because both Russians and Jews are like that. There are numerous articles about that.

I am not saying that you should change your ways of communicating with the Jewish people. I just wanted to remind that it is a really complicated matter, tightly knotted and rather tough to touch. In this case also the primary thing is that if you acknowledge that and get involved there is no way back.

BTW if you want an example of total malice and bigotry I refer you to Rachel Newirth's articles on this very site.  

by Mark Sashine (72 articles, 19 quicklinks, 269 diaries, 4101 comments [131 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 at 5:51:22 PM

  (0+)

16 million Russians died in Hitler's "war of extermination".  They died in work to starvation camps, just like most of the politicals, Jews, Gypsies, etc.  The real question is how do people allow sociopaths to seep through their society to the top.  Why do they fall sucker time and time again.  Even Israel has allowed itself to be created and co-opted by sociopaths!

by John Hanks (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 1760 comments [39 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Wednesday, Jul 30, 2008 at 7:39:57 PM

  (0+)

since the 1940's doesn't seem to have diminished.  They just aren't happening much to 'white' people.  This whole conversation has been so used-abused-degraded in the postwar years that maybe it's time to admit that slaughter-for-profit has always been a subtext of the American Dream, as with any other wouldbe empire. There aren't many goodguys anymore.

by Laudyms (0 articles, 1142 quicklinks, 10 diaries, 708 comments [138 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Thursday, Jul 31, 2008 at 2:41:19 PM

  (0+)

Most of the Jews I've run onto on the net have such a Superiority  attitude with their noses so far up to the sky, they are in danger of drowning everytime it rains. I can see why the holocaust happened to them if they were always this way. But they have always been a stiff-necked people who never learn their lessons from past experience. Explains why Jesus failed to wake them up. I'm sick of hearing them whining. You don't hear us Indians still whining about our massacres.....they need to just GET THE FREAK OVER IT! ThXs for this post!

by Zena Princess (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 89 comments) on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 at 9:55:02 AM

  (0+)

To John Hanks, You pose a good question. I'd change it just a little to "Why do we fall sucker time and time again?"

To Laudyms, remember Sarajevo. When the Winter Olympics were held there it was recognised as a wonderful example of a place where Muslims and Christians lived in harmony. Then a few years later we had the tragedy of Bosnia where the world looked on as Muslims were slaughtered purely because they were Muslim. They had invested in economic infrastructure instead of weapons. When they were attacked, we didn't allow them to buy the weapons they needed to defend themselves. We wrung our hands while we watched a turkey shoot.

To Zena Princess, quite a few of my friends are starting to express views similar to yours. This is quite worrying to me. Because although it may be arguable that the Jews are bringing it on themselves; these views seem to be the first steps along the path to a repeat of Jewish persecution.

What are the causes of anti-semitism? (I know that Palestinians are semitic people too, I'm just using it as a kind of shorthand here.) Now we are moving into very dangerous ground. If I consider the actions and attitudes of the Jews themselves I will certainly be classed as racist  But I must ask the question, why is there so little anti-Maltese, anti-Greek, anti-Chinese or anti-Irish prejudice? Why is anti-Jewish prejudice on the rise? (If it is.)

It's notable that more and more anti-Jewish urban legends are circulating. An example, "Don't even try to become a gynacologist in Sydney or Melbourne. The Jews have it sewn up. Even if you get into the course, which is unlikely, they'll fail you out of it." I have no direct knowledge if this is true or not.  But the people who say it are convinced it's true.

To be a Jew is an optional race issue. In modern western societies people are only Jewish if they say they are. And what's this story about "God's chosen people." What a load of BS. If I am one of God's chosen ones, does that mean you are not?

I think there is an urgent need for Jewish people to examine the causes of antisemitism and also to stop accusing others of it so indiscriminately.

Just as feminists in the early days did not help their cause by claiming all men were potential rapists, Jews today are not creating a more secure future for themselves by labelling any criticism as antisemitic and endlessly trotting out the Holocaust as some uniquely and perpetually relevant historical tragedy.

Meryl Anne Butler wrote at length about how we attract to ourselves whatever we obsess about. I'm not sure I agree with her explanation that it is a quantum physics thing, but it does seem to be a rule of nature.

Jews will be much freer within themselves if they learn to let the Shoah go.

Please, you are dragging non Jews into the role of persecutors with this unhealthy obsession.

by John Haigh (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 118 comments) on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 at 11:23:26 PM

  (0+)

Puhleese! It is grotesquely stupid to hold anybody today accountable for the actions of anybody at all 2,000 years ago.

Even biblical literalists should read the statement, "May the blood be on our heads and on our children's." as ONE generation.

I personally think this statement was added to the texts much later.

Kurt Vonnegut coined the term grandfaloonery to describe the inanity of assigning ourselves or others to arbitary groups and applying a feeling of importance to membership of the group.

Jews today are no more or less responsible than I am for the fate of Jesus. 

by John Haigh (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 118 comments) on Friday, Aug 1, 2008 at 11:57:27 PM

  (0+)