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Interview Transcript: Joel Bakan-- Author/Producer The Corporation-- on How Corporations are Psychopathic, part 1

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From Joel Bakan
Joel Bakan
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link to audio podcast.

Thanks to Dick Overfield for transcript checking

R.K.: And welcome to the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio show WNJC 1360 AM out of Washington Township, New Jersey reaching Metro Philly and South Jersey. Online at iTunes. Look for my name, Rob Kall, K-AL-L or go to and you can find hundreds of interviews there.

My guest tonight is Joel Bakan. He is a professor at the University of British Columbia, Faculty of Law. He studied at Oxford University as a Rhodes Scholar and served as Law Clerk in 1985 for Chief Justice Brian Dickson of the Supreme Court of Canada. He wrote the book and created the movie, The Corporation:The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power, one of the most successful documentaries ever produced. The most successful one ever produced in Canada. And more recently he is the author of, Childhood Under Siege: How Big Business Targets Children. Welcome to the show.

J.B.: Thanks for having me on, Rob.

R.K.: It's a pleasure. You have done such an important work. I know it's been years ago, but can you" the book and "The Corporation" movie, it seems that both the books you've done and the movie are very related. Can you describe the message of both of them, briefly and we can jump into some newer stuff?

J.B.: Well, I suppose the message is that we have created an institution that is, if you were to analogize it to a human being, would be psychopathic in terms of its character and then we've given it increasing amounts of power to the point where arguably it now plays a substantial role in governing society and in governing those who allegedly govern us.

So, it's really an attempt to reveal that; to challenge notions that corporations are benevolent or socially responsible at their core and to just suggest that we the people need to reestablish, or establish control of these institutions so that they can't sort of willy-nilly trod upon public goods.

R.K.: And how about your newer book, Childhood Under Siege?

J.B.: Well, I suppose, related to what I just said, the one public good that's quite important is that of childhood and that of the well being and health of our children. And in "The Corporation" I look at that albeit as sort of a one part of one chapter. And as I was writing, The Corporation, I was also-I have a couple of young kids- and I started to become really interested in that and I thought as I was doing, The Corportation, this is something I want to return to and do a fuller treatment of. So I wrote this last book which basically is a vastly expanded look at that issue of what happens when we let this psychopathic institution loose on those who are most vulnerable among us, namely our children.

I look at the issues that are important these days, marketing to kids, pharmaceuticals, the pharmaceutical industry and how it targets kids, the unique vulnerabilities of kids to environmental toxins, the corporatization of our school system, the re-emergence of child labor in the United States and in Canada. So those are sort of the range of issues I look at.

R.K.: Okay. So you did the movie, "The Corporation," ten years ago. Actually longer, it actually came out I think in 2003. What have you learned since then and how is your thinking changed? Do you see things as better or worse?

J.B.: I have learned the project was a massive failure if measured from the perspective of trying to change the course that we sort of identified our society was on because our society has continued on that course and I think things have in many ways become worse. I mean, if worse is defined by corporations having a more substantial role in governing society then things have become worse because they do.

And they do in part because of the successful ideological move that the corporate sector and industry have made which is to convince, I think, a broad swath of public thinking, and certainly thinking among governments, that corporations are, in fact, benevolent. So, the central message of our film about the institutional character of corporations seems not to have much of an impact, at least on the broader society.

At the same time, and I am forever an optimist, I understand your show is based on an optimistic premise that our society is becoming more bottom up and at the same time I do remain optimistic that people, both individually and collectively, eventually can see through the ideological charades that are put before them. I think the Occupy movement was a great example of that.

I think a smaller movement here and there and increasing dissatisfaction with the way things are on main streets and small cities" I mean we are seeing indications in many different places and many different ways that the corporate agenda is starting to be seen for what it is and that people are starting to believe they need to do something about it. That is because I think it's related to some of what has happened since "The Corporation" film and book. There is a wide-spread view among economic and political elites that capitalism has triumphed and that we're at the end of history. That this is" we've tried socialism, we've tried all these other things, but now we have finally reached the system that is going to be with us for all time.

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Rob Kall is executive editor, publisher and website architect of, Host of the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show (WNJC 1360 AM), and publisher of, President of Futurehealth, Inc, and an inventor . He is also published regularly on the

Listen to over 200 of Rob's Podcast interviews here.

Rob is, with the first media winner of the Pillar Award for supporting Whistleblowers and the first amendment.

With his experience as architect and founder of a technorati top 100 blog, he is also a new media / social media consultant and trainer for corporations, non-profits, entrepreneurs and authors.

Rob is a frequent Speaker on the bottom-up revolution, politics, The art, science and power of story, heroes and the hero's journey and Positive Psychology. He is a campaign consultant specializing in tapping the power of stories for issue positioning, stump speeches and debates, and optimizing tapping the power of new media. Watch me speaking on Bottom up economics at the Occupy G8 Economic Summit, here.

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OCCUPY WALL STREET we are not commies.Then what ar... by Mark Breza on Sunday, Jun 15, 2014 at 10:59:44 AM
The capitalists, or if you prefer, job creators u... by Lance Brofman on Sunday, Jun 15, 2014 at 11:10:16 AM
Seen from the top, Roosevelt was socialist to a fa... by Peter Niniart on Sunday, Jun 15, 2014 at 12:12:23 PM
Capitalism is social organization via money, and m... by Derryl Hermanutz on Sunday, Jun 15, 2014 at 5:46:34 PM
After reading this transcript, I was surprised tha... by Joyce Garcia on Monday, Jun 16, 2014 at 11:42:44 AM
I thought corporations WERE people! Does that subs... by Jo Anne Simson on Monday, Jun 16, 2014 at 7:52:32 PM
People capable of empathy , have the ability to va... by Dale Bordelon on Tuesday, Jun 17, 2014 at 6:43:29 AM
Ultimately there is not much we can do with psycho... by Dale Bordelon on Tuesday, Jun 17, 2014 at 9:56:45 PM