This is an interesting read - starting from a position of supposed democratic liberalism and ending up advocating war crimes against an isolated and contained population because no other solution seem possible.

Violence - war - is seen as a legitimate solution, the only desired solution perhaps but it is never the only solution, perhaps the chosen solution for the desired outcomes, whereas a negotiated solution would produce results that are not the desired outcomes and would necessitate compromise.

I am leery of the "political science" descriptors - there is nothing scientific about politics and if the commentaries from the majority of political scientists in the west are any measure, the learning achieved is minimal and is mostly a rhetorical position from a presupposed belief (not necessarily a truth and not necessarily based on all the evidence).

To state "I really don't know and it seems no one else knows" reveals a lack of reading - lots of people claim to know the answer -  many are more legitimate (there's that word again) than others.  Many Israeli commentators can provide you - and any inquiring readers - with a strong background position on the Palestinian issue within a long historical perpsective from the early days of the British Zionists through to the current Gaza problems (see Cook, Rabkin, Simons, Pappe, Reinhart, Zertal and Eldar, Dunsky, Makdisi to name a few).   There is much more to read than Huntington's rather simplicstic world view with its "clash of civilizations."

As for an international solution, it is impossible while the U.S., the world's neighbourhood bully, supplies Israel with $3 billion annually in aid along with military hardware and also supports its cronies and elites in Egypt and Saudi Arabia in a similar but not as generous manner.  The UN is useless again because the U.S. and Israel deny any support towards a truly global democratic agenda.  There is no will to solve the problem as long as the U.S. and its allies - ranging from Canada, U.K., EU, Australia and the Arab elites of Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia - do not want to solve the issue other than to protect their own interests, which are mainly oil and regional hegemony. 

As for saying "The Middle East is full" the statement has been true for quite a while which is why over the centuries the invading imperial armies of Britain, France, Russia, and now the U.S. find themselves in such difficulty there - people do not like being occupied - and neither do the people of Palestine like being occupied by the Israeli IDF.  The Zionists did not occupy an empty land waiting for a people to  fill it, but occupied and destroyed hundreds of Palestinian villages and are - against international law - establishing their own settlements in the occupied West Bank. 

You are right - there are no free territories, which again is why Israel is using violence to settle the occupied territories and violence to contain the refugees and indigenous people of Gaza - and to reiterate again, against international law.  The forward solution, one that won't happen with Israeli/U.S. recalcitrance and belligerence, is for a single democratic state for all the people's of Palestine. 

 Separation as a solution now would result in contained and controlled bantustans of Palestinians without any real democratic or sovereign rights.  Integration has to be the answer moving forward - it has worked more or less in South Africa and in the U.S. after the Civil War with the freed balck population slowly integrating into U.S. society - obviously both still being a work in progress regardless of the colour of the presidents' skin.  In Ireland the IRA insurgents were incorporated back into civil politics - tenuous yet - but certainly a more just and peaceful effort than continuing the war.

Perhaps at the moment war is the de facto answer, the default answer that Israel turns to every time because it knows with the backing of the U.S. and the complacency of the surrounding Arab states it can do what it wants and spin its own rhetoric as justification.

Because it is a default and de factro solution does not make it "legitimate."  Most wars are not legitimate, and certainly this one does not fit the definition under international war crimes law and the UN Charter.  To cheer for the IDF on the grounds argued here - or probably anywhere else for that matter - is to ignore the lack of intention to work towards democracy and peace in spite of all the rhetoric put out by the Israeli/U.S. governments and media.  

The position argued here of a "legitimate" war is very weak and needs much more thought and contextual development.

by Jim Miles (63 articles, 8 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 8 comments) on Thursday, Jan 8, 2009 at 11:45:53 PM

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Last night in Beer Sheva my companion counted three explosions and I five. Gaza has no friends. The Arabs pushed a cease fire through the UN that had no chance for any real success. It was only propaganda about the humanitarian crisis without any muscle to stop the fighting.

The Americans who vilify Israel don't know anything about what is going on. They always interfere in ways that only continue the war.

I think everybody foreigner should butt out and let the citizens of both countries to settle our issues by the ballot box.

by Jason Paz (68 articles, 88 quicklinks, 112 diaries, 1385 comments [97 recommended, 1 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 at 6:21:58 AM

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"I think everybody foreigner should butt out and let the citizens of both countries to settle our issues by the ballot box."

Ummm, is Israel letting things be settled by the ballot box?  Hamas was democratically elected and then Israel blockades Gaza.  You contradict your own statement. 

by Joe Bechtold (8 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 42 comments) on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 at 8:25:35 AM

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meanwhile, what do US taxpayers contribute daily to Israel?  something in the 10 million/day...and so who is a foreigner in this case? how much was put into katrina per day (aside from the 900.00 per day that supposedly blackwater received for patroling there) and congress that has been handpicked by aipac lobbyists, according to retired Senator Findley, because our interests are no long US interests...the lines are blurred and US citizens have stopped looking for them.

by karmacounselor (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 7 diaries, 106 comments [7 recommended, 0 rejected]) on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 at 10:11:13 AM

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As an American who is sick of seeing our tax dollars go to the criminal murderers who illegally occupy Palestine, I agree that foreigners should just "butt out".  But contrary to what the author said about us not knowing what is going on.  Some of us do.  Some of us have read the history from Lord Balfour to the present and all of the uglies before and inbetween.  We know that the Israelis at least have sirens that warn them of rockets and that the Gazans do not.  The Israelis have an Army and Air Force (thanks to the U.S.) the Gazans do not.  The extremists stole this land from people who have lived there for nearly 900 years.  The have violated over 60 U.N. resolutions yet the United States will never let the U.N. scold Israel.  I cannot understand why this country lets these people get away with their crimes against the Palestinian people.  Do they believe they have to support Israel because of the Old Testament?  Is it religious or something else that they give the green light for all of the atrocities committed by the extremist Jews?  Up until 9/11 I was a supporter of the Israeli people.  Then I began the task of educating myself on Israel, how they came to be and what they have done and continue to do to the people of Palestine.  And I thought we were Imperialists!  The extremist government has brainwashed many of its own people and unfortunately people in America.  I no longer support the Israeli "state".  They took the land by force and have committed atrocities against the Palestinian people and the Lebanese people for years and have never been punished.  They are supposed to be according to some "God's chosen people".  Well they must keep doing something wrong because things don't seem to be going so well for them.  I am not comparing the extremist government with the average Israeli.  There are many who are opposed to the kind of beliefs that they subscribe to.  If the Palestinians and the Lebanese were on a more equal footing, i.e., if they had tanks and aircraft, would the IDF be so gung ho?  Would the government in Israel be bombing and killing civilians with impunity like they are doing now?  They don't care about the civilian casualties.  They never have.  Sharon proved that when he was in the army at Sabra and Shatila.  The cycle has continued.  The extremist (because I can not use another word) Israeli government are criminals, much like Bush and Cheney are in this country.  Now that I have armed myself with knowledge about the history of Israel, I can honestly say that I no longer have any support for them.  The people need to come to terms with how they took the land they have and what their leaders are doing to unarmed civilians.  And of course they will say that people like me are anti-semitic.  Look up Semite in the dictionary before the real meaning is altered.  Israel is the number one anti semite in the world.  There are more Arabs that are Semites than there are Israelis.  People do need to know what they are talking about before they speak.  But I have done enough studying to know that it should not be Israel that garners support from people. 

by kim hillstrom (0 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 3 comments) on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 at 10:14:15 AM

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Quite unexpectedly, I end up agreeing with Jason.  He reported hearing a total of eight "explosions".  That cannot be argued with.  But it does make me wonder how many thousands of explosions from Hellfire missiles, live munitions, and white phosphorous bombs the Palestinians heard?

He says of the U.S. "They always interfere in ways that only continue the war."  A true statement followed by another true statement that perhaps they should "butt out".  These truisms apply in Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan and all the other countries where the U.S. has attacked or subverted any government that does not suit their purposes- usually resource control.  When they butt out, they can take their money and armaments with them.

It is also true that there should be a democratic vote - wait a minute - that already happened in Palestinian territory.  But sure, let's go for a democratic vote for "both countries" (sorry, that is not a truth, there is only one globally recognized country) but better have it before too long as the Palestinian birth rate is higher than that of Israel and the populations now are about equal. 

by Jim Miles (63 articles, 8 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 8 comments) on Friday, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:05:36 AM

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you and ami make me understand Israel veeeery well !

by Wael Hallaj (1 articles, 0 quicklinks, 0 diaries, 14 comments) on Saturday, Jan 10, 2009 at 10:21:02 PM

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