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June 21, 2008 at 17:21:37

Do We Deserve Our Constitution Any Longer?

by john de herrera     Page 1 of 1 page(s)

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I’d love to know who here really really cares anymore about what’s happening, because when you no longer care about something, you simply no longer deserve it.

 

Having watched C-SPAN, and having listened to callers express outrage over the recent actions of the U.S. Congress, and looking through the Diaries on the Rec List here and at other sites, any visitor to our small planet might conclude we American citizens no longer deserve our Constitution.

 

If you really do care about the U.S. Constitution, that would mean you’d be willing to do something in its defense. We all know lip service and action are two different things. So if you do care, or you think you still care, please allow me to explain some things about our Supreme Law, and what can be done to prevent it from being ignored any longer.

 

In life, we know there are two types of Opinion: objective and subjective. Objective opinion is based on what we clearly know to be true, i.e. the facts. Subjective opinion is based on what is true for us individually. As it happens, the Constitution is also divided into these two categories. The objective aspect is its seven articles, or its Structural Law. The subjective aspect is its twenty-seven amendments, or its Civil Law. You can debate all day and forever about what 28th Amendment would best serve the U.S.A. today, but there’s no debating how such an amendment is to be proposed and ratified.

 

It should be clear that the 110th U.S. Congress has failed to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution. The vote on FISA is but one example in a long list (and if you think that list is at an end, I’d suggest it’s just beginning). The Constitution provides exactly two ways to propose change for the union: Congress or Convention. And if there are two ways to get something done, and one is out of commission, what do you do?

 

When we examine the convention clause of Article V, at first glance, it appears there are many unanswered questions. How is such a convention to be convoked and convened? Once convoked, what happens? Once convened, what happens?

 

Due to recent legal history, it’s been determined that it’s up to the politicians in Congress to decide whether this nation shall ever hold a federal convention. In other words--and there are current members on record stating this--as soon as there is genuine interest in utilizing this aspect of the Constitution, the Congress will act.

 

Many people fear an Article V Convention, because they are ignorant in their belief that it’s the same thing as a constitutional convention. This is incorrect. A constitutional convention is for the purpose of writing and proposing a constitution, whereas an Article V Convention is for writing and proposing amendments to our U.S. Constitution. Citizens who cannot make this critical distinction between a constituional convention and an Article V Convention are what we call stupid, i.e. lacking intelligence.

Whichever convention you’re talking about, it’s important to keep in mind that discussing and writing new law is not the same thing as ratifying new law. Ratification requires a certain amount of approval before a proposed law has any effect.

 

If you--yes you--believe that "voting" new legislators into the Congress to replace those who have failed the Constitution will make things right again, then your credibility as an American is questionable. The U.S. Congress is and has been compromised by corporate and special interests for one, and secondly, due to a hodge podge of electronic voting machines, we can no longer be sure as to the accuracy of any said "election."

 

For those who care, I suggest you put your money where your mouth is. I’d like to think there are enough apart of this community willing to co-produce a feature documentary which could and would create the interest required to coerce a convention call out of the U.S. Congress.

 

www.articlev.org

Writer from California

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Writer from California
john de herreraWriter from California

here's the idea:

http://www.articlev.org

according to physics, simply making such a documentary will have untold consequences. please do get in touch if you are so moved.

by john de herrera (33 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 128 comments) on Saturday, June 21, 2008 at 8:25:59 PM
 


JC Garrett is a freelance writer and Constitutional scholar from the piney-woods of East Texas. He apologizes to the entire world that the great Lone Star State could have produced the neo-Neanderthal currently occupying the Oval Office.

"I'm not ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed George W. Bush is an American."

Mr. Garrett owns and operates an independent recording studio, plays several instruments, writes, sings, and produces music.

His stories have ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

JC GarrettJC Garrett is a freelance writer and Constitutional scholar from the piney-woods of East Texas. He apologizes to the entire world that the great Lone Star State could have produced the neo-Neanderthal currently occupying the Oval Office.

"I'm not ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed George W. Bush is an American."

Mr. Garrett owns and operates an independent recording studio, plays several instruments, writes, sings, and produces music.

His stories have ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Mr. de Herrera

I understand and share your frustration with the status quo, but your proposed method to change it is simply misdirected and ineffective.

The problem is that the Constitution is being ignored. An amendatory convention will not solve this. It also will not solve the problem of legislators being unresponsive to the people, as it is legislators who would have to call for, plan, schedule and conduct the convention.

In fact, the only thing short of actual revolution that can remedy the situation is to elect other, better leaders. Your contention that elections are many times manipulated is valid. That has been true from the birth of the nation. The only remedy is to work toward fairer, less manipulated contests.

An amendatory convention does absolutely nothing to correct any of our present problems, nor does it confer any more power to the common man. It is completely dependent upon the current political establishment, and is simply a red herring that will distract the energies of well-meaning, frustrated patriots who are looking for a way to put true power back into the hands of the people.

by JC Garrett (34 articles, 49 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 456 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 4:14:21 AM
 


A concerned citizen and former mathematician/engineer now retired and living in rural Maine.
PrMaineA concerned citizen and former mathematician/engineer now retired and living in rural Maine.

. . . More Specifically,

While in the abstract I tend to agree with what you say, I think it is worthwhile to consider whether there might be changes at the constitutional level that would help us avoid the problems that we are experiencing with our government.

The founders did a marvelous job in crafting our constitution, but that was more than 200 years ago and we have more experience with things that can go wrong. Today, with our improve technology and greater experience, we may be able to think of some better approaches.

Let me just suggest a few possibilities.

In his recent bid for the Democratic nomination for president, Mike Gravel proposed that with the advent of modern communication we could now have a more participatory democracy in which individual citizens could vote on specific important legislative issues (e.g., should the war continue?).

Term limits for senators and congressmen.

A separately elected fourth branch of government specifically for the purpose of prosecuting violations of law by public officials.

Corporations are not persons and do not have the rights of persons.

Corporations have, as their primary responsibility, the furtherance of the public good and the periodic renewal of any corporate charter depends on demonstration of having behaved responsibly in this regard.

by PrMaine (8 articles, 5 quicklinks, 1 diaries, 284 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 8:51:16 AM
 


Writer from California
john de herreraWriter from California

the only place your possiblities

will have a chance to be considerd, will be at a federal convention.

by john de herrera (33 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 128 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 11:45:42 AM
 


JC Garrett is a freelance writer and Constitutional scholar from the piney-woods of East Texas. He apologizes to the entire world that the great Lone Star State could have produced the neo-Neanderthal currently occupying the Oval Office.

"I'm not ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed George W. Bush is an American."

Mr. Garrett owns and operates an independent recording studio, plays several instruments, writes, sings, and produces music.

His stories have ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

JC GarrettJC Garrett is a freelance writer and Constitutional scholar from the piney-woods of East Texas. He apologizes to the entire world that the great Lone Star State could have produced the neo-Neanderthal currently occupying the Oval Office.

"I'm not ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed George W. Bush is an American."

Mr. Garrett owns and operates an independent recording studio, plays several instruments, writes, sings, and produces music.

His stories have ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Changes are fine, method is unworkable

There's no question that certain amendments could be of great benefit. Times change, and that's exactly why the Founders provided a way to adjust through amendment.

But an amendatory convention is simply implausible and ultimately has no practical value. The problem is that the whole thing depends entirely on the very same politicians that are unresponsive to the people now. States vote every year on those they wish to represent them. If those representatives won't do it through the normal procedures, what makes anyone think that they would act differently in (or even have any desire to initiate) an unconventional alternative method?

by JC Garrett (34 articles, 49 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 456 comments) on Friday, June 27, 2008 at 4:00:40 AM
 


Writer from California
john de herreraWriter from California

you have not considered

what exactly would happen after the call is coerced out of the congress. to say the process will be mugged by the same politicians who are mugging goernance today, shows you really have not considered the issue.

one distinction to make is that the delegates who propose ideas will not be their to legislate, but simply to propose ideas. that process in and of itselfwould provide a balance of power that is sorely lacking.

more importantly, the delegates will care not what they propose, ecause they will not be worrying about getting funds for another election. in other words, delegats are not "politicians" as you would perceive them.

by john de herrera (33 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 128 comments) on Friday, June 27, 2008 at 4:11:40 PM
 


JC Garrett is a freelance writer and Constitutional scholar from the piney-woods of East Texas. He apologizes to the entire world that the great Lone Star State could have produced the neo-Neanderthal currently occupying the Oval Office.

"I'm not ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed George W. Bush is an American."

Mr. Garrett owns and operates an independent recording studio, plays several instruments, writes, sings, and produces music.

His stories have ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

JC GarrettJC Garrett is a freelance writer and Constitutional scholar from the piney-woods of East Texas. He apologizes to the entire world that the great Lone Star State could have produced the neo-Neanderthal currently occupying the Oval Office.

"I'm not ashamed to be an American. I'm ashamed George W. Bush is an American."

Mr. Garrett owns and operates an independent recording studio, plays several instruments, writes, sings, and produces music.

His stories have ...

to see more of bio, click on member name

Yes, I have

I assure you that I don't comment on issues that I haven't considered. Anyone who wants to propose something can do that right now. That's exactly how it works most of the time. Advocacy groups and individual citizens propose legislation to their legislators, and the legislators decide whether to act on it or not. That's exactly what would happen at a convention.

by JC Garrett (34 articles, 49 quicklinks, 5 diaries, 456 comments) on Saturday, June 28, 2008 at 12:02:18 AM
 


Writer from California
john de herreraWriter from California

what if legislators

fail to propose credible legislation in regards to the voting process? why have legislators failed to propsoe that the u.s. standardize the vote? they won't because corporate interests do not want the vote secured. that is what a convention is for--to propose the things legislators will not.

by john de herrera (33 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 128 comments) on Saturday, June 28, 2008 at 12:28:12 AM
 


Writer from California
john de herreraWriter from California

please reconsider your position

many of your points are fallacies. it seems you've given little thought as to what will actually take place once the convention call is coerced out of the congress. the dynamic would be the same as a crooked accountant being told an outside audit was to begin. most of the nation and much of the world would focus attention, and once that happens a balance of power occurs which would do everything you think it won't.

while elections may have been manipulated in the past, today it's done with proprietary source code. our ability to vote fundamental change into existence no longer exists.

in my opnion you have no real sense of the issue or political science, but simply parrot time-worn conceptions of it. you seem to lack the imagination to perceive how the opposite of your position is the truth of the matter. if a convention were convoked, and delegates assembled, the event itself, merely as a civic ceremony whereby the country is allowed to come together, is anathema to the current status quo. that's what true patriots desire, and it rests with the convention clause of the u.s. constitution. until and unless it occurs sovereign power will continue wither on the vine.

the efforts of congress, or the establishment, are to prevent common sense solutions from arising (such as standardizing The Vote). a national convention is the logical and obvious panacea because delegates will propose what the congress never will.

take some more time to proceed point by point from the call itself as to what the natural progression of events would be.

the convention clause does indeed exist for a reason. you have failed to grasp it.

by john de herrera (33 articles, 0 quicklinks, 2 diaries, 128 comments) on Monday, June 23, 2008 at 11:43:12 AM
 

 

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