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Korten: Yeah.
Kall: That’s really what it is. They start out as these creepy jerks and move to become full people.
Korten: Yeah.
Kall: And I think that’s really what you’re describing as the post-corporate world, too.
Korten: Well, I think it is. Yeah, I wasn’t quite so much into that, into this framing at that time..,
Kall: (Laughs) Creepy jerks is not the language you would use.
Korten: Laughs.
Kall: I’m sorry.
Korten: Well, of course, you know in, you know, that was back in a time also when I was very focused on the system. It was very clear in my mind when I wrote "When Corporations Rule the World". I’m not talking about bad people; I want people to understand the bad systems. By the time I got to writing "The Great Turning", which was after 9/11, and we were seeing the Bush administration and Enron and all that kind of crap. Phew! You know, I got to face up to this. There are some bad people too. They got some serious shit going on. And so, you know, in "The Great Turning", I explicitly talk about…
Kall: Good thing we’re off the radio now and on to the recording.
Korten: OH, yeah. You can blot that out.
Kall: That’s okay when I’m downline. (?) [not on radio]
Korten: I better be careful when I’m-- when we’re on live radio. Yeah. But, yeah, you know, what I see now is that what we’re dealing with is an interplay. I mean, it’s not really bad people or evil people in a sense, it’s people who are deeply psychologically disturbed. And whose development never followed through that arc.
They’re stuck in the early stage of that arc, which, you know, from the standpoint of developmental psychology, is the basic kind of perceptual orientation of a six to twelve year old. Which, in that age group, is not necessarily bad, it’s just a natural part of our development.
Of course, that’s why we need parents. To provide us with guidance, but if people remain stuck in that mode into adulthood, then you’ve got your George Bushes and your Dick Cheneys and Ashcrofts and all these characters, who absolutely should not be in positions of power. But are the ones who are most willing to engage in the absolutely brutal competition to achieve those positions of absolute power.
Kall: And it’s this competition, as compared to partnership, that is one of the key differences that you describe in the post-corporate world, though, I think. Right?
