W.B.: Well I think what he did was a public service to everybody in his country because he made it impossible for the Government to deny what they're doing and now they have to face it and publicly address it which they haven't really fundamentally done. You've seen in the process that some of them have been caught in lies over and over again that they're still trying to cover what they do, they haven't really corrected anything yet.
I mean they haven't really grown up to the point to understand that this whistleblowing is a problem that they've got that they need to face and correct. It's like an alcoholic, you know? If they don't realize they're an alcoholic they can't correct it. You have to face your problem to be able to solve it and they are not ready to face it yet.
R.K.: I love it. I love it, I wrote this article quoting you and in it I said that people have to just wake up and realize that their face is in the gutter and they've hit bottom and we're talking about America and democracy because of the way NSA and Obama have been operating. We're working with the same metaphor there.
W.B.: Unfortunately that's correct. It really is.
R.K.: So this is the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show WNJC 1360 AM out of Washington Township reaching Metro Philly sponsored by opednews.com. Opednews.com is the place where you're going to get light cast where you don't see it cast from the mainstream media. It's going to give you a perspective and it's going to ask question that you don't get asked elsewhere.
I'm talking with Bill Binney. Bill was a high level member of NSA, a tech guy, I spoke with him for quite a few hours yesterday before and after he gave a lecture and at dinner, and I have got to say Bill, you're a really smart guy.
W.B.: I look at myself and I just look at myself as a very practical, simple thinking, straight forward, common sense kind of person.
R.K.: Well I get a chance with this radio show to interview some of the smartest people in the world and you're right up there, you're a really sharp guy. You're a really smart guy. I was very impressed by you, for whatever that's worth. You have had an experience with dealing with money and NSA and you talked about that. You had a program that was running that was working that was constitutionally legal and in your opinion and other people's opinion more effective than the current NSA giant haystack program. So, what was it costing NSA?
W.B.: The cost to develop that program was about 3.2 million dollars from beginning to end. And we had it deployed at the end in two, three separate sites doing running twenty four hours a day inputting data all the way to the analysts.
R.K.: And that was Thin Thread, right?
W.B.: Yep. Yep. Then we proposed to do a general deployment in January of 2001 to go after eighteen sites that were productive against terrorism so we wanted to capture the world wide terrorist problem on those eighteen sites and do that and we estimated the cost to do that at 9.5 million dollars.
R.K.: So less than fifteen million dollars for the whole project?
W.B.: Yes, that's right.
R.K.: Then somebody at a higher pay grade than you came along and said what can you do with 1.2 billion dollars I think you said, right?
W.B.: Yes it came out of the NSA Transformation office that was the office that was handling, or supposed to handle the programs to do transformation to manage the digital age and also to transform our computer's network system worldwide and some other programs too. It was the move-in to the future kind of funding area that they were managing. So that became -
R.K.: So now last night you talked a little bit about describing visually what was there before this move into the future and it sounded like a rat's nest of wires under the floors and collections of routers with tons of wires going into them with nobody knowing where they went, in closets-