R. K.: So when you're coming up with -- this is my last question because you're giving me more time then you said you would, I appreciate it, when you're coming up with as big a change as this, when you tell me US is Number 2 in transparency, that tells me the world is really hurting, because it's not really very transparent-
E.M.: In terms of open data, so it's not across the board evaluation in terms of transparency but yes I would agree with you, Rob.
R. K.: So the question is, when you're making what amounts to a cultural transformation as you've described it, one of the things that really makes a difference is having graduate studies and having it as a subject to be studied and researched in universities, that gives it a credibility and a depth of, a power, is there anything like that happening?
E.M.: I'm not seeing anything along these lines. I mean, I think in this hill that needs to be taught to people who are interested in openness and transparency, which may seem odd for me to say this, are computing skills, I mean, having technology literacy, both in how you use and how you build technology and tools, it's really now a part of being literate. Being able to read and to write and I think that is, you know, those kinds of skills will help people understand and participate in this new society that is developing based on technology.
R. K.: So, how about any educational approaches to it? Getting schools to teach about transparency? Is that happening? Is it showing up in text books? This is along the same thing.
E.M.: Well I think we wouldn't want it silo'ed as transparency, I think we really, all of this belongs in the study of government and society. What our open societies mean? What does open government mean? How should government be responsive? How should it represent the people? And so I would hate to see it silo'ed as the study of transparency. It's really the study of what a democratic society looks like. It has to be open, it has to be inclusive, it has to offer equal opportunity and so it's really inherent in the liberal arts generally, I think.
R. K.: So are there graduate programs, are there courses in elementary schools or in high schools about open government, open societies? Is that being discussed in history books?
E.M.: Well the answer to that is there are growing interests in this field at various universities, NYU has an open-gov lab now where there's a tremendous amount of work that's being done and so that's one example. I can't really tell you whether there are other ones but there are certain to be. There are plenty of academics who are looking at this field and trying to asses, you know the impact of openness and open data on individual's participation as well.
R. K.: We know that the Koch Brothers and people like that are endowing universities with multi-million dollar grants to fund specific academics. I know the Sunlight Foundation does endowment and funding so maybe down the road that would be another way to strengthen this as a cultural transformative phenomenon.
E.M.: It could be, probably not going to come from Sunlight. We give very small grants, they're called Open Gov Grants and again, your listeners should go to our website for more information about this. They are really five and ten thousand dollar grants for people who have ideas transformative, civic innovation ideas where we, with our small grants can get some people off the ground. So those are called Open Gov Grants. We'd love to have people apply to the process.
R. K.: And on that, I want to thank you for the interview and for the small Open Gov Grant that you gave to Op Ed News back in 2008.
E.M.: It's been a long time, it's been a long time.
R. K.: And we're still using it and we're still updating it with the APIs that you've created so we're on of your keyholders for the API-
E.M.: Terrific!
R. K.: Thanks so much. You're doing great work and -
E.M.: It's always a pleasure, Rob
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