AMY GOODMAN: Speaking of what's happening in Yemen, Congressman Ellison, the White House is considering adding armed CIA drones to the arsenal against militants in Yemen, mirroring the agency's Pakistan campaign, and allowing the US military Special Operations Command units to operate under the CIA would giving US greater leeway to strike at militants without even an explicit approval from the Yemeni government. What are your thoughts on this? All of this of course coming out with the two bombs that were found on planes headed to Chicago, it looked like.
REP. KEITH ELLISON: You know, I'm concerned about that policy. I am concerned about it because, you know, I have endeavored to try to study terrorist ideology, and these people don't expect to defeat the United States with these bombs and stuff. What they want to do is provoke a reaction, which they then can use to whip up--use as a communications tool against the United States. So, I think that what we may do is go slower here, think through the implications of it, think through the legalities of it, and really try to come up with a real counterterrorism strategy designed to undermine these people. I mean, these terrorist groups, I mean, they're literally hoping to agitate the United States or the larger military power to come back at them, and then, when civilians die, they say, "See what the US did? And we're the ones to help you; the US is not." So I think that it's important to bear in mind what their strategic objectives are and not allow ourselves to be tricked into their game plan. I do--so I am concerned about it and really, really have reservations.
And then, on the other front, the whole idea of the drone program is something I think we need to have a real dialogue about, because talk about asymmetric warfare. I mean, this is the ultimate in being able to strike, but not be struck back against. And whenever that is the paradigm, you know, you kind of wonder whether or not your threshold for decision making gets lowered. I mean, for example, how many casualties are acceptable? How much evidence do we need before you do a targeted assassination? What is the due process implications? Are victims to be compensated? I mean, there is a whole range of important questions that I don't think we're answering, or even really asking. And so, I think that this raises some very critical issues that I'm very concerned with. I can tell you that the United States used to be a very popular country in Pakistan. Our popularity there has plummeted. I don't think it's a good idea to repeat that scenario in Yemen. And I do believe there's got to be better ways to do this.
And let me also say this, Amy. You know, the fact is, is that, you know, we do need to strengthen diplomatic relations. I mean, Yemen is one of the poorest countries in the world. Yemen is a country where some transnational terrorists can sort of run around without a lot of scrutiny, because the Yemeni government is so weak. And so, you know, there are a lot of things that we should do before, you know, we kind of launch into a--we basically become a military presence in Yemen. And of course we would be one if we have military wherewithal--hardware, personnel--there and are engaged in fighting. Then we're militarily in Yemen without the Congress ever saying a word about it. And the reason that Congress is not really focusing is because there are no body bags to worry about, nobody's son or daughter is going to come back--and, of course, we don't want that, but that then relieves us of the responsibility of really making the tough decisions. So, I don't know. There's a number of issues.
AMY GOODMAN: So, are you opposed to the--so, are you opposed, Congressman Ellison, to the targeted assassination of the American citizen, Anwar al-Awlaki, who's believed to be in Yemen now?
REP. KEITH ELLISON: Let me say this about that. Anwar al-Awlaki is an extremely problematic individual. I think he is criminally culpable for promoting terrorism, and I don't mean just in some vague way. I mean in some fairly direct ways. I do think Anwar al-Awlaki needs to be held responsible for what he did. But I would rather see Anwar al-Awlaki sitting up in a courtroom and the evidence being marshalled against him and him getting a sentence that he deserves, like if he can be proved to be responsible for the things I think he's responsible for, getting a life sentence or something like that. But I think that when you do a character--I mean, when you do this assassination, you essentially give him what he wants, which is martyrdom. I mean, Anwar al-Awlaki is not scared to get killed. You know, he is somebody who wants--who has delusional, fantastic, crazy dreams of being some kind of a martyr. And so, why reward him with that? The last thing Anwar al-Awlaki wants to be called is a common criminal, which is what I think he is. So I would rather us pursue a strategy of arresting him and putting him on trial and then--and not allowing him to claim that he's some sort of a victim. That would be, I think, the preferred way to do it.
AMY GOODMAN: Congressman Ellison, last question, and that is about the midterm elections tomorrow.
REP. KEITH ELLISON: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: You're considered to be very much in a safe seat, but it does look like, if the polls are right--and we don't like to talk about polls very much; we like to talk about issues--that the House could go Republican.
REP. KEITH ELLISON: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: And one of the issues that President Obama has had to deal with, as he goes out late in the game around the country, is not so much how they frame the issue, but what his policies have been. You opposed the surge in Afghanistan.
REP. KEITH ELLISON: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: Many might say he became president because he was opposed to the war in Iraq. That was the difference between him and Hillary Clinton.
REP. KEITH ELLISON: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: And that's what got him the Democratic nomination. The people in this country who are so deeply disappointed by what they thought would be the change that he represented, what do you say about that and what it would mean for Congress to go Republican after tomorrow?
REP. KEITH ELLISON: Well, let me say this. I want to say to all progressives that we really need to understand what we will be doing to the cause of peace, economic prosperity for working people, if we hand this thing back to the Republicans. You will see a flurry of subpoenas issuing out of a Darrell Issa-led Oversight Committee. You will see offers to try to repeal healthcare reform and Wall Street reform. You will see--and if they can't repeal it, they will try to defund it, and they will shut the government down in the same style that Newt Gingrich did before. You will see a flurry of faux investigations. You thought Whitewater and Ken Lay--I mean, not Ken Lay, Ken Starr were bad? You're about to see something worse than that, and you're about to see these shock troops across the country, under the guise of some of these right-wing populist organizations known as the Tea Party, really get rambunctious. And so, in my opinion, it will be a disastrous thing.
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