Kathleen Wells:Then, it becomes moot or irrelevant to paint/characterize a company as criminal, reckless, or sociopathic. It's a moot point.
Mike Papantonio:I think you hit it on the head. It does, because even though the Supreme Court, six months ago in the United Citizenscase, said that we have to treat a corporation like a person, we don't treat them like a person.
And until somebody shows courage, and I don't anticipate that that is going to be Holder. Holder comes from that silk stocking, corporate atmosphere. He was the guy that these corporations called on to defend them. Covington & Burling -- that's where he comes from.
Is that the guy that is going to pull the trigger on this? Probably not. But it's going to take that kind of courage. It's going to take an Attorney General saying: "Damnit, we just can't allow this anymore. We have to set an example."
Kathleen Wells:But he did announce that he is bringing a criminal investigation.
Mike Papantonio:So what! I'm pleased. I'm happy that he is. Hooray! Let's see what it is. At the end of the day, let's see what it really is.
How many indictments have you seen in the Goldman Sachs issue? How many indictments have you seen in AIG or any of these real, real, ugly cases that flowed from Wall Street?
Kathleen Wells:So you are basically saying this investigation has no teeth?
Mike Papantonio:It will have no teeth. It will look like it's something, but when it is all over it's not going to be anything. Nobody is going to go to jail.
Kathleen Wells:So corporations in this country are in a lofty position.
Mike Papantonio:They are above the law! There is no question. And until we start treating " If we are serious if this dysfunctional, corporate-run Supreme Court that we have if they are serious and they say we must treat a corporation like a person when it comes to giving campaign donations, they should have the right to do what a person does, well fine. It's a two-way street: They also have the responsibility to be held accountable when they kill people, when they destroy an ecosystem, when they lie to us about their relationships with regulatory agencies, when they bribe regulators. We should be able to throw them in jail because they are a person.
Kathleen Wells:There has been no case law in United States where a CEO or an executive of a corporation has faced criminal penalties?
Mike Papantonio:That's not accurate -- there has been. But they are very few and far between. If you quantify it, what is the conduct en masse that we see in the United States? Can we go get somebody yeah, we can. We saw it with Tyco. That was clear. We saw it with Enron, right? That was very clear: This person did this.
But most of the time they have so much insulation that we give them such a free pass that it is very, very difficult to do. It's because we built it into the system to where the system perpetuates its willingness to protect a white-collar criminal and throw the blue-collar criminal in prison.
Kathleen Wells:And so you are saying it's not likely that it's going to happen with any of the executives with BP?
Mike Papantonio:No. Frankly, people with middle management should already be in prison. The people that were involved in the drug and sex orgy scandal that broke out right before this happened -- they should already be in jail. What we are talking about is bribery purely, simply bribery.
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